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TOPIC: The Ford Wars- battle updates

The Ford Wars- battle updates 02 Dec 2014 23:51 #1

  • Tracy Gallaway
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OK guys, I've started this thread as a place to land ongoing inputs from our intrepid Ford warriors and researchers Karl, heysoundude (Greg) and others who may wish to join in. These Ford topics have been in other LONG threads like MPGR, and will be hard to find in future. I'll see if I can move some posts, or maybe just add links to them here, but I'm still a Kompewter Klutz! :silly:

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The Ford Wars- battle updates 16 Dec 2014 00:48 #2

  • Tracy Gallaway
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I'm chiming in Re: Karl's Mazda Misery here...I was typing along in responce to Karl's latest in JV's thread on fuel trims going erratic, then realized I'm tromping on his thread, so here instead.

I've been suggesting most anything I can to try helping. When I'm trying to diagnose an engine, I'll raise the hood, start it and just listen as it idles, using all senses touching the engine to see how smooth, rev it up/down, listening, I'll go back and sniff exhaust, looking everywhere, for anything wrong. Karl, have ya ever pulled any of the plugs to check color, for any variations in color/condition between cylinders? How clean/ smelly is exhaust, under cold start or hot?

IF it's all OK under idle and on road under all conditions, no obvious glitches, or hiccups, then I'm led to think the "state of tune" is OK. And I'd therefore expect the Groove and other tricks to give at least some results. I even wonder if the injectors could wear and have less than ideal spray pattern, given the Mazda's pretty high miles if inj. are original. Ever ask a mechanic familiar w/ these trucks if there are known issues on these or other parts, w/ high miles? Are they known for long service life, is yours typical, or exceptional? I wonder what would be seen w/ a vacuum gauge hooked to man. vac., at idle and on road? Also what do any Mazda truck owners say on other forums? Man, there just has to be a clue somewhere. Could there STILL be a vac. leak somewhere? :angry: Have you seen a power increase or improvement in how it runs from all you've done? I really can't remember ANY vehicle that the Groove or other things I do hasn't given some kind of positive response, but that's me. Better power is the easiest way to judge gains.

On the MPG Remedy front, after I think Heysoundude mentioned it, I bought a bottle of 35% food grade hydrogen peroxide. the health food/vitamin store had it in refrigerator, so it's in mine, awaiting my next dose of MPGR mix. Still running on a partial tank of chevron reg. w/Techron added as a cleanup move, just going on a hunch. I'd try the new (to me) tactic of HHO idle treat. if it was available to me. I'm considering tweeking the Weber DGEV float level too, but carefully...
At least we are getting price relief for gas now, who knows how long it will last, it seems almost ominous how low oil is going now...wonder what's really up? :huh:

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The Ford Wars- battle updates 17 Dec 2014 12:37 #3

  • Tracy Gallaway
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OK Karl, let's shift discussion of your Mazda here. We get going in other thread's and create a disjointed story...

So does the Mazda's Idle RPM stay high even after driving w/ hot engine? It should be dropping
well under 1000 when hot, could be a vac. leak, could be the IAC staying open. Every engine w/ modern injection I've seen idle drops down at hot re-start. It's noticeable during ECU re-learn drive sequence, at each park-shut down-restart, RPM goes high then immediately drops down, it's an indication the engine is warmed up. Something maybe missed could be temp sensors- intake air temp, coolant temp, input sensors to computer, there will be spec's for those available, check OBD readings. Does OBD show closed-loop operation, check correlation between FT's, temp inputs, O2 voltages, load, TPS, exp. mechanic can watch OBD2 readings real-time and spot anomalies. Does engine reach op. temp like over 180 deg.? Can check if input temps to ECU match temps checked w/ infrared thermometer at rad. and thermostat housing. Need INfrared thermometer, scanguage/scantool, digital voltmeter to get readings.

Another thing to check is exhaust gas how does tailpipe smell, is there moisture in exhaust. Moisture is good sign of good combustion, if it's dry AND smelly it may mean rich mix too much fuel going in and/or bad cat. convert. Coolant in exhaust from previous head gasket leak can kill cat, look at downstream O2 voltage, I think if cat is good then downstream O2 should stay around .5V w/ hot engine/cat's. Check cat's w/ infrared thermometer cat's "light off" around 600 deg.F. A 5 gas smog machine can identify if HC or CO is too high, and the nose is useful too. When something is wrong there will be evidence somewhere. Codes, other symptoms too. Vac. leaks can also be in evap. system, gas cap, charcoal canister, hoses/tubes or the control solonoid valve. EVAP solonoid can go bad, or stick open. Can cause vac. leak not on engine. Worth checking.

What about fuel press. regulator? Vac. leak from vac. hose or leaky internal diaphragm. Check fuel press. compare to spec's. If tailpipe is stinky or black then I start asking/ looking at fuel system, vac. leaks, cat's even ignition, and see if it's running smoothly. If it runs smooth all the time, clean tailpipe smell, brown inside tip, no burps hesitation or other weirdness, then it makes me think there is a problem that ECU is compensating for. See if temp. inputs to ECU look OK. Does it warm up normally, or take a long time? Is t-stat AND rad. cap OK? IF you and friend can't find anything, could be worthwhile to let pro diagnostic shop look it over. Gotta be such a shop there somewhere there's one here in Reno. You drive lotta miles burn lotsa gas, lotsa $$! that dang Mazda is draggin' anchor somewhere!! :angry: :( :S Keep looking Inspector Karl!!!

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The Ford Wars- battle updates 17 Dec 2014 12:54 #4

  • Tracy Gallaway
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Here's another clue, from the Ford Idle/IAC adjust procedure info...



notice they say how often a car owner will SWEAR there's no vac. leaks and yet they find 'em...and how they say ALL mechanical issues must be fixed first, THEN this procedure can be used w/ TPS. I've seen the Ford TPS's how it looks like they can be rotated, yet they seen to attach in a fixed way hmmm... the screw mounting TPS holes can be widened w/ drill IF needed.

I've just re-read the threads on forum front page re: Idle adjust pre-Groove, the Ford IAC/TPS adjust procedures...So I think Heysoundude has right idea to get his ride all ironed out BEFORE he Grooves it. Karl, do you have a TB that isn't Grooved? Now I'm seeing just how important it is to have a healthy vehicle before adding mods, or you get in a hall of mirrors trying to diagnose it. The Mazda had existing issues pre-Groove. There's this idle issue now. Mods aren't working. Karl, when did this idle issue surface? If it is OK except for this RPM thing, that's one thing. But it's real important to fix existing things before the TPS adjust procedure they say, that makes sense. Each time the RPM climbs at idle, and w/ high idle in general it's using more fuel. Wish we had a Star Trek transporter so I could look at it myself.. One other thing, as I said to Bo in Thailand, see if ther's a vac. syst. sticker map underhood or in a book to realise the whole vac. system. Thankfully Ford doesn't have as much vac. complexity as back in 80's Yikes!


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Last edit: by Tracy Gallaway. Reason: endless more stuff...

The Ford Wars- battle updates 18 Dec 2014 08:56 #5

  • GregK
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And what about your Throttle Cable, Karl? Does a mashed gas pedal result in TRULY Wide open throttle? If not, it could be that the ECU is pumping more fuel based on the fuel map for what the TPS is telling it.
I noticed a HUGE difference when I corrected mine. It was literally a 5 minute fix and BAM! In fact, I'd check (and apply, if necessary) TRS Magazine - Throttle Cable Mod
 

 

 

 

 
 

Throttle Cable Mod

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Submitted by 'Destroy' - Forum Member

Over time, the throttle cable stretches and the housing seats more into its ferrules, thus, adding play to the gas pedal. You never feel this because:

a) it happens so slowly and

b) the gas pedal drops down more so there's no "free" period (where you push on the pedal and nothing happens) while you're pressing on the gas. 

This is an easy fix, and its free. All you need is a few zip-ties and 10 minutes.

Crawl under your dash and find the throttle cable. There's two of them under there, one is the right one, the other one I have no idea what it does, but don't zip tie it. What you want to do is pull the gas pedal off the floor and wrap as many zip ties as you can fit around the excess throttle cable sticking out. I fit three around mine and the difference is huge. Once you've done this, your truck can fully achieve a wide opened throttle. My friend Tom did this and claims his truck down shifts smother now. Whether of not it helps shifting is up to you. I don't know. But you will get better response at the pedal.



 

Comments:

These comments were added 9/07 by oldmantruck and pertain also to the transmissions kickdown cable:

(Vehicle - 1994 4.0 Automatic Ranger)

"I don't know who else this may apply to, but hopefully it helps someone. I'm pretty sure the newer trucks control the kickdown electronically, but for the older one's its still a cable

If your truck is like mine, The throttle cable and kickdown cable are too long for the truck ( or stretched over time when the first owner had it, I'm not sure which) This gave me a dead spot in the throttle as well as no way to get to fully open and completely prevented the kick down cable from working. After nearly getting killed when the truck didn't kick down when I was passing a tractor, I decided something needed to be done.

Fortunately the fix is easy. On the top of the Gas petal assembly where the two cables connect, (the one on the left is the throttle and on the right is the kick down,) just start installing zip ties to take up the slack. zip it right around the cable and then slide up against the metal ferrule on the end of the cable. each tie should take out about 1/4 " of slack. On my truck, I needed one tie on the throttle and two on the kickdown to get things working like they should. Additionally I added a third to the kick down to make the transmission kick down a little sooner which seems to work well for me.

The best part is this is a cheep fix."

 

 

footer</a> before doing the IAC adjust. I held my throttle plate open with a vise grip while tightening the cable with zip ties.<br /> <br /> I drive with a MUCH lighter foot now, and that means better economy to begin with. In conjunction with a successful groove and all the preliminaries, I'm hoping to approximately double my current average MPG. </div> </div> <div class="kmsgsignature"> <div>Greg Kusiak<br /> Most Active Member<br /> Audiophile</div> </div> <div class="kmessage-thankyou"> The following user(s) said Thank You: <span class="kwho-admin hasTooltip">Tracy Gallaway</span> </div> </td> </tr> <tr> <td class="kbuttonbar-left"> <p>Please <a class="btn-link" href="/login?return=aHR0cHM6Ly9tZW1iZXJzLmdhZGdldG1hbmdyb292ZS5jb20vZm9ydW1zL2RpYWdub3N0aWNzLzM1MjEtdGhlLWZvcmQtd2Fycy1iYXR0bGUtdXBkYXRlcw==" rel="nofollow">Log in</a> to join the conversation.</p><div class="kmessage-editmarkup-cover hidden-phone"> <span class="kmessage-editmarkup hidden-phone"> Last edit: by <span class="kwho-user hasTooltip">GregK</span>. Reason: fixed the link </span> </div> <div class="kmessage-buttons-cover"> <div class="kmessage-buttons-row"> </div> </div> </td> </tr> </tbody> </table> </div> </div> <div class="kcontainer"> <div class="kbody"> <div class="kmsg-header kmsg-header-left"> <h2> <span class="kmsgtitle kmsg-title-left"> The Ford Wars- battle updates </span> <span class="kmsgdate kmsgdate-left" title="18 Dec 2014 09:28"> 18 Dec 2014 09:28 </span> <span class="kmsg-id-left"> <a href="#5470" id="5470" rel="canonical">#6</a> </span> </h2> </div> <table class="kmsg kpublished"> <tbody> <tr> <td class="kprofile-left" rowspan="2"> <ul class="kpost-profile"> <li class="kpost-username"> <strong><span class="kwho-user hasTooltip">GregK</span></strong> </li> <li> <a href="" data-toggle="tooltip" title="" class="label label-default "> Offline</a> </li> <li> Friends of Gadgetman </li> <li> <img src="/media/kunena/ranks/rank6.gif" height="16" width="70" alt="Friends of Gadgetman" /> </li> <li> Posts: 1283 </li> <li> Karma: 114 </li> <li> Thank you received: 652 </li> <li> <span class="kicon-profile kicon-profile-gender-male" data-toggle="tooltip" data-placement="right" title="Gender: Male"></span> </li> <li> </li> <li> <span data-toggle="tooltip" data-placement="right" title="Click here to send a private message to this user." ></span> </li> </ul> </td> <td class="kmessage-left"> <div class="kmsgbody"> <div class="kmsgtex"> and then there's this link:<br /> <a href="http://www.therangerstation.com/tech_library/FuelInjection.shtml" class="bbcode_url" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"> Fuel Injection
   

 

 
 

Fuel Injection - By PT_Ranger_V8

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o, you just found something on Ebay that’s supposed to give your truck 20 more horsepower…Right - we’ll get to that later… First, how about some basic information on how fuel injection systems work.

Ok, one more thing before I get started, I’m NOT an expert on this matter, but I’m well read, and have the basic concepts down. This is not an end all, be all write-up, just some general information on how FI works, and what you can do with it.

Most of my information is just transposed from 3-4 main sources, namely:

  • Automotive Fuel Injection Systems (Jan P. Norbye) - A good general history of FI

  • How to tune and modify Ford Fuel Injection Systems (Ben Watson) - Overall info, and tweaking tips

  • My Chilton manual for Ford Mustang 89-93 - Great overview of how the system works in a car - wiring diagrams, etc.

There are one or two more books that you can get, check out the TRS 5.0 forums

Basically, what happens the car runs is simple. The computer gets a reading from an air sensor, telling it how much air is coming into the engine. The computer then goes to a lookup table, where it finds the amount of fuel needed for that amount of air. The computer will then allow that much fuel to pass into the injectors, and on into the cylinders. As the car warms up, and reaches normal operating temperature, it takes readings from the exhaust gas sensors, or the exhaust temperature sensors. The computer then determines if the engine is running lean or rich, and compensates for it, accordingly.

When you accelerate, you draw more air into the system, (and use more gas), and the whole process is repeated. Keep in mind that this is happening thousands of times per second, and the whole thing doesn’t take very long to do.

That, in a nutshell is how a basic FI system works.

Now, to get into a little more detail.

The air that is coming in, is measured either by a MAFS (mass air flow sensor) or a MAP (manifold absolute pressure) for volume. Also, you have a barometric pressure sensor, engine coolant temperature sensor, and an air charge sensor. Also, for timing purposes, you may/may not have a PIP sensor, and a knock sensor. Don’t forget about the throttle position sensor, either - it’s very important.

Brief overview of the different sensors:

MAF: heated wired is cooled by air flowing over it, computer measures how much current is needed to keep wire at specified temp (i.e. 100* F)

MAP: outputs a square wave signal to the computer, ranging form 90-170Hz (160Hz is atmospheric pressure - no air is needed by engine) idle is approximately 120hz, and deceleration is 90Hz. Therefore, as the engine accelerates, the frequency increases, the computer ‘sees’ that it needs more fuel.

BPS: Barometric sensor measures the pressure of outside air - more altitude = less oxygen in the air. The computer ‘modifies’ itself to compensate for this.

Engine coolant sensor: Senses the temperature of the engine - as the engine warms up, it can use a leaner mixture, and therefore less gas.

Air charge Sensor: Similar to ECT, measures how dense the incoming air is, knowing that more fuel is needed for colder air

PIP sensor and knock sensor aren’t extremely vital to this discussion, so I will bypass those

TPS (throttle position sensor): Used to determine the position of throttle (open, closed, partial opening) As you get closer to WOT, the computer relies less and less on the exhaust sensor readings, and more and more on the built in tables.

Ok, so now that you know what the sensors do, what good does that do you, except for a bunch of gee whiz info? Well, here’s the deal. I’m assuming that you know colder air requires more fuel to burn completely, and that’s why a ‘cold air intake’ will give you more horsepower…(supposedly). Basically, the whole theory is ‘more air in, more power out’ Well there are two sides to that story. You need to be able to flow more air in, yes, but you also need more air out. When you trick the computer into thinking that it’s getting more air coming in, (cold or hot) then you end up with really poor fuel economy. Because the computer is thinking that the engine isn’t warm yet.

The theory behind it all is that cold air is better than hot air, because it’s more compressed, and will expand more when heated. Incidentally, it’s the same principal theory behind turbochargers, and superchargers. However, and engine requires a LOT of air to be ‘charged’, but that’s another topic altogether.

When you buy a ‘kit’ from ebay, or your buddy, or wherever that claims to give your engine 20hp in 20 minutes, beware! Think about it, if it was really that simple, why didn’t they do that from the factory? Use some common sense, and maybe ask a few questions.

For example, if you see a kit that ‘plugs into your wiring and gives you 20 hp you need to be very wary - it’s probably a resistor to change the voltage the computer sees. If the computer thinks that it’s getting more air, or colder air, or more, colder air, then it’s going to let more fuel into the engine. Sure, you’re going to get more power, for a bit, but you’re also going to drain your gas tank, and foul your plugs, because you’ll be running a lot richer than you should be. This is bad in the long run.

Other things you may see are things that plug into your exhaust sensor, and they have the same effect, just a different method.

 

footer</a> <br /> <br /> I found the explanation of how the TPS relates to fuel map interesting, and it justifies what I've been working at (getting a baseline) and what I said in my last reply, above. </div> </div> <div class="kmsgsignature"> <div>Greg Kusiak<br /> Most Active Member<br /> Audiophile</div> </div> </td> </tr> <tr> <td class="kbuttonbar-left"> <p>Please <a class="btn-link" href="/login?return=aHR0cHM6Ly9tZW1iZXJzLmdhZGdldG1hbmdyb292ZS5jb20vZm9ydW1zL2RpYWdub3N0aWNzLzM1MjEtdGhlLWZvcmQtd2Fycy1iYXR0bGUtdXBkYXRlcw==" rel="nofollow">Log in</a> to join the conversation.</p><div class="kmessage-editmarkup-cover hidden-phone"> <span class="kmessage-editmarkup hidden-phone"> Last edit: by <span class="kwho-user hasTooltip">GregK</span>. Reason: more better use of words </span> </div> <div class="kmessage-buttons-cover"> <div class="kmessage-buttons-row"> </div> </div> </td> </tr> </tbody> </table> </div> </div> </div> <div class="ktopactions"> <table id="topic-actions"> <tbody> <tr> <td class="klist-actions-goto"> <a id="forumtop"> </a> <a href="#forumbottom"> <span class="kicon kforumtop"></span> </a></td> <td class="klist-actions-forum"> <div class="kmessage-buttons-row"> </div> <div class="kmessage-buttons-row"> </div> </td> <td class="klist-pages-all"> <ul class="kpagination"> <li class="page">Page:</li><li><span class="pagenav">1</span></li></ul> </td> </tr> </tbody> </table> </div> <form action="/forums" id="jumpto" name="jumpto" method="post" target="_self"> <input type="hidden" name="view" value="category"/> <input type="hidden" name="task" value="jump"/> <span class="kright"><select name="catid" id="catid" class="inputbox fbs" size="1" onchange = "this.form.submit()"><option value="0">Board Categories</option> <option value="1" selected="selected"> Main Forum</option> <option value="4">- Automotive</option> <option value="5">- - Ford</option> <option value="6">- - General Motors</option> <option value="7">- - Dodge</option> <option value="8">- - Foreign Manufactured</option> <option value="19">- - Performance and Mileage Reports</option> <option value="11">- - Carbureted Vehicles</option> <option value="2">- Welcome Mat</option> <option value="12">- Personal License Pilot Program</option> <option value="9">- Off-Road Applications</option> <option value="10">- Service Bulletins</option> <option value="14">- Brotherly Love</option> <option value="15">- Other Stuff</option> <option value="20">- - Groovy Questions and Other Stuff</option> <option value="22">- - Trial and Error-How we learn!</option> <option value="16">- Diagnostics</option> <option value="17">- Tools of The Trade</option> <option value="25">- Open Discussions</option> </select></span> </form> <div class="pull-right"></div> <div class="clearfix"></div> <div class="kblock kpathway breadcrumbs-2"> <div class="kcontainer"> <div class="ksectionbody"> <div class = "kforum-pathway"> <div class="path-element-first"><a href="index.php?option=com_kunena&view=home&defaultmenu=2413&Itemid=2408">Forums</a></div> <div class="path-element"><a href="index.php?option=com_kunena&view=category&catid=1&Itemid=2408">Main Forum</a></div> <div class="path-element"><a href="index.php?option=com_kunena&view=category&catid=16&Itemid=2408">Diagnostics</a></div> <div class="path-element"><a href="index.php?option=com_kunena&view=topic&catid=16&id=3521&Itemid=2408">The Ford Wars- battle updates</a></div> </div> </div> </div> </div> <div class="pull-right large-kicon"><a rel="alternate" type="application/rss+xml" href="/forum/topics/mode-topics?format=feed&type=rss"><i class="icon icon-feed hasTooltip" title="Get the latest posts directly to your desktop" aria-hidden="true"></i></a></div> <div class="clearfix"></div> </div> <div style="text-align:center;"><a href="/forums/credits" style="display: inline !important; visibility: visible !important; text-decoration: none !important;">Powered by</a> <a href="https://www.kunena.org" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" style="display: inline !important; visibility: visible !important; text-decoration: none !important;">Kunena Forum</a></div> <div class="clearfix"></div> <!-- End Content --> </main> </div> </div> </div> <!-- Footer --> <footer class="footer" role="contentinfo"> <div class="container-fluid"> <hr /> <p class="pull-right"> <a href="#top" id="back-top"> Back to Top </a> </p> <p> © 2024 Gadgetman Groove </p> </div> </footer> </body> </html>