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TOPIC: Fuel Trims going Erratic

Fuel Trims going Erratic 10 Dec 2014 18:00 #1

  • JV
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Hello all, been awhile since I've been on.

I just recently grooved a:
99 Honda Civic DX
4 speed Automatic

My main issue is with the Fuel Trims.
According to my ScanGuageII, the short term fuel trims are erratic.
The values are jumping around from about -7 to 13 every 2 seconds, even with a steady throttle plate angle.
and I can't get the Long Term Trims to go below 5! I even reduced the idle air ports in the throttlebody but, still the Trims climb up even when idling.

The O2 sensors(up & downstream) are newly replaced, so I find it hard to believe they are bad.
The ECU was conditioned just as Ron stated.

Does anyone know what might cause this wild fluctuation?
The last time I experienced this issue was when my exhaust had a leak right in front of the sensor.
But I just had a new exhaust replaced, There are no vacuum or exhaust leaks.

This is really confusing me.

By the way,
Does anyone know how Ron is doing? Alive? anything?

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Fuel Trims going Erratic 13 Dec 2014 00:24 #2

  • Tracy Gallaway
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Hi JV, I don't have much to say except I've noticed, and remember Ron saying Honda's often need some time to adjust. I'd say the newer the fussier I'd expect them to be. Were replacement O2's Factory or aftermarket? Ron said I think it can take 5 or more tanks of gas, and MPG can drop before it improves.

Ron- well he's alive I know that much. But I can't contact him directly, we have to rely on all he's left for us, and support each other, it's up to us now! I look in lots of directions for info all the time.

This is off-topic, but I've just found youtube and other vid's, where some people are taking large stand-alone HHO generators, that are purpose-built. A gas output hose is directed either to a vac. hose or into the TB direct w/ air duct removed. The engine is run at idle about 40 min., and the HHO gas is directed into the engine as it idles, this is supposedly done to remove carbon buildup in engine, supposedly works as carbon removal technique, which helps engine overall. I don't know exact details, but prob. a large LPM volume of HHO is used.

Tracy G
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Last edit: by Tracy Gallaway. Reason: more info

Fuel Trims going Erratic 13 Dec 2014 20:12 #3

  • Karl411
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Tracy
As far as removing carbon, I did it with water into the TB or intake manifold vacuum.
Just do enough squirts with a spray bottle to keep the engine running and prevent from stalling if too much. I know the mechanic I had change the head gasket said the engine was super clean for 270k miles and he thought I had the engine replaced so I'm guessing it was the water injection.
Think I saw a video on this too on Youtube. A mechanic I spoke to said he just very slowly pours it into a tube into wherever.
Karl

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Fuel Trims going Erratic 13 Dec 2014 20:42 #4

  • Tracy Gallaway
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Yeah, Karl, I know of the water spray de-carbon method. but this is fundamentally different, it looks like it involves chemical reaction processes between the carbon and oxide deposits, and the HHO gas. Might be similar or related to how H or HO radicals can fracture HC chains, in some way. I was interested in claims that the carbon gets turned to vapor state and burned thru the process, and the oil stays clean. At end of one video the car is revved in park or neutral, and a lot of water is expelled from tailpipe, water is a by-product of good combustion. IT involves obviously a high flow rate of HHO gas to intake, much more than would result from any normal HHO onboard generator. Water mist ingestion is like steam-cleaning by contrast. Evidently mfg's in Asia make purpose-built HHO machines w/ timers and sophisticated controls, and computers, just for this purpose. A shop type machine, done in a shop environment. My Subie has carbon deposit issues, I'd like to find a good way to reduce or clean it out. At the moment I'm running a tank of Chevron reg. w/a bottle of Techron added as a treatment. As an aside- I have seen one case where an aggressive use of MPGR seemed to clean the injectors on one problematic car and gave a BIG performance/driveability improvement.
IF it does work, I'd pay some$$ to someone w/ such a machine to have it done- these machines can't be cheap! I wonder if this method could clean out cruddy cat. converters and exhaust. This use of HHO is new to me, but it makes sense in light of years of claims related to HHO onboard generators.

JV- I don't know, but at some point you might try using MPG Remedy in this Honda?

Tracy G

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Fuel Trims going Erratic 13 Dec 2014 21:57 #5

  • Karl411
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While I'm learning algebra on the engine, your teaching me trigonometry. :blink:

Thought you knew that stuff about injecting water so was confused at your answer. Now I know.

I bet the MPGR would work well on cleaning injectors on a Nissan. :woohoo: :P

Have you ever tried Star-Tron to counter ethanol issues?
Heard some good things about it but mainly on marine engines and power equipment that has sitting gas issues. Heard that some got results with injector issues too with this.
Just wondering. :whistle:
PS. Bought aspirin powder by the pound cheaper on Amazon along with 35% H202 even though the MPG didnt work for me. Bought it just in case I find the problem on my rebellious Ranger imitation. :evil:
Karl

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Last edit: by Karl411.

Fuel Trims going Erratic 15 Dec 2014 21:46 #6

  • GregK
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Karl - you've got 2/3rds of the recipe for the Remedy right there. Add the final 1/3rd and try again. Remedy works regardless of groove...in my (limited) experience so far.

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Fuel Trims going Erratic 15 Dec 2014 22:30 #7

  • Karl411
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Tried the MPGR with the Heet,H202,aspirin and Lucas with no results that I can see.
Used varying amounts of aspirin up to 2x the amount and more HEET and Lucas, etc..
Also tried Acetone with Xylene and Acetone with Toluene in varying amounts with no noticeable results. Tried the Star Tron to help eliminate the ethanol effects and then added acetone.
Figured maybe the Star Tron would break the bond the ethanol has on the surface tension of the gas so acetone can do its breaking but havent seen any difference in any of the formulas I've used.
Those with carbs have the best result since they dont have the elites chip keeping them in the prison of low mpg. If Shell Oil can produce an engine that gets 376 mpg back in 1973, you know they can give us that mpg and more if they wanted to. But its not in thier best interest.
Thank the elites for giving us the chip to keep us at their mercy with lower mpg.

Its all by design.

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Fuel Trims going Erratic 16 Dec 2014 19:42 #8

  • Tracy Gallaway
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JV- any chance there is a vac. leak somewhere-- this does sound like symptoms of one. I know they can be a drag to track down--but it's often necessary, Groove can make one stand out. Are FT's more stable while driving, more unstable at idle? If so, it may be 'cause vac. leaks manifest most at idle. I know you said there are no leaks. I think all Honda's are "sensitive" they seem very finely tuned. If indeed no vac. leaks- well Ron said it often takes 5 or more tanks to get ECU to cooperate...Might look closely at air intake from filter all the way to TB to ensure no upstream leaks.

Karl, my friend w/ the "miracle Nissan Maxima" said she makes her batch of MPGR, w/ increased aspirin, puts in at home, then drives a few miles w/ low fuel, then adds gas. She can't usually afford to fill it up, so result is an aggressive MPGR regimen. After doing it like this a few times, the improvements really increased.

Tracy G
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Gadgetman Reno, NV

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Fuel Trims going Erratic 16 Dec 2014 23:16 #9

  • Karl411
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Karl, my friend w/ the "miracle Nissan Maxima" said she makes her batch of MPGR, w/ increased aspirin, puts in at home, then drives a few miles w/ low fuel, then adds gas. She can't usually afford to fill it up, so result is an aggressive MPGR regimen. After doing it like this a few times, the improvements really increased.


I remember you telling me that and I tried it. Would put in the regular batch near empty, then when filling up put in the regular batch plus about 25% more just to make sure I didnt cheat the formula on the light side.
I fill up every week about 13-15 gallons since I do about 300-360 miles a week. Try a different formula each time it seems with a little bit more of this and that with other additives like acetone, xylene, toluene, naptha and star-tron.
Am going to try to get to a client I did a job for a week ago since I found out he was a very good mechanic.
We chatted about how 9-11 was a farce, how engines are made to eat fuel and other issues.
Spent about two hours extra there but enjoyed the info and experience. Will try to bring my cantankerous crank to him and see if his diagnostic can find a problem that everyone missed. He thought that if I had the head gasket changed that all the leaks should have been dealt with but will look at it and see. The rpms are around 1300-1600 at idle and he thinks that could give him reason for a leak that nobody can find. Will see what happens.
Gotta be something wrong when every mod I have done has no real improvement with HP or MPG. Going on five mods on the engine now and none make the difference noticeable.
Karl

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Fuel Trims going Erratic 17 Dec 2014 11:21 #10

  • Tracy Gallaway
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Karl, check the Ford Wars thread, we're jacking JV's thread.

Tracy G
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Fuel Trims going Erratic 22 Dec 2014 14:47 #11

  • GregK
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One last Jack:

Karl, expect a call from Aaron Knorr to talk about your truck's groove. Thanks to Tracy, I've passed your number along to him and he has said he will call you.

Good luck!
-greg

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