TOPIC: newbie

newbie 17 Nov 2014 01:39 #1

  • khunwiputh
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After trying hard to concentrate on grooving lesson, I am nearly to do my own first groove.




Two important things i have to do is

1. cutting the groove
2. Cap the PCV system

I prepare a dead throttle body from a taxi garage to practice grooving.
I choose the biggest bit to do this groove.
This is the way I set my Dremel 4000. I set speed 15.
I use a glass of tap water to cool the bit.
I get this groove when everything finish.

Is it o.k. for this groove? Am I do it correctly? please give me some suggestion about it.

What I have to do more on my throttle body. I see Ron always use J-B KWIK on his throttle body while I have no idea to use it.

Next is about capping the PCV system.

1. Is this the right way to cap the PCV system. I use a yellow vinyl to cap the PCV valve.
2. What I have to do with this line? Do I need to cap it with the PCV valve?

After taking these pictures I put everything back. Please tell me what to do more about it.

Thank you very much

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newbie 18 Nov 2014 12:00 #2

  • Tracy Gallaway
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Khunwiputh, welcome to the forum.

If you want to be a Gadgetman, you should get the Gadgetman Personal License, available by contacting Collette Thomas, you need a real Gadgetman bit to do the Groove right. Click the Get Grooved button on the front page. The bit you pictured is a far cry from the real thing!

We always welcome newbies, and give help. You obviously have real interest, you're trying to learn the techniques, have a Dremel, spare TB, and even posted w/ pics, those are all important steps. So to help in your efforts at this, I'll ask a few more questions. BTW, where are you located? By the location of the brake booster, this Toyota is right-hand drive, I'm guessing you are in Asia, western Pacific, or England??
We encourage posters to use their real name, easier than trying to use "handles".

So, is this Toyota a full propane conversion, or is it dual-fuel? What year and model? We use the JB Quick and other metal epoxies to back-fill if the bit might break thru the TB casting, and for re-routing and restricting Idle air control passages. Only if needed.

PCV- re-routing of this is described at length in postings in the Index area, click the Index button top of forum page. Don't just cap the PCV valve, instead we re-route the hose from active manifold vacuum to upstream of the throttle body. Ron Hatton gave us a lot of information in his training and other videos, this has been an ongoing process, and can be confusing until you really understand the basic principles. The core principle of the Groove, is to enhance and intensify intake manifold vacuum, to better vaporize the gasoline. Propane vaporises better than gasoline, so if this engine is propane only, the Groove may not work as well.

Learning the Groove is itself a process, it's best to learn the principles first, then the techniques. The Groove itself, PCV re-routing, and Idle air control (IAC) mods are the core mods. We can then add ignition, O2 sensor, stopping intake man. vacuum leaks, and finally other vehicle "tricks" to the mix. All to reduce emissions, increase power, and increase fuel mileage.

You can learn a lot here just by reading posts both in the forum and Index. But you need the real Gadgetman bits and Ron's training DVD to do it right! I'm sure many have tried to "hack" the Groove w/ substitute bits, some even with some success...

but to get in the game properly, start at the front door, is my advice to you. BTW, I already see an opportunity for a couple "tricks" w/ this engine...

again, Welcome to the forum, kuhnwiputh! Do tell us more! :cheer:

Tracy G
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Last edit: by Tracy Gallaway. Reason: more info as usual

newbie 19 Nov 2014 02:26 #3

  • khunwiputh
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Thank you very much for a warm welcome for newbie

My name is Wiputh Parkpian you can call me " Bo " I live in Thailand.

After applying for the Gadgetman Personal License I receive 3 bits and one training DVD. (P1040190 - P1040194) Because my little skill in automotive system I decide to do studying by internet and the training DVD until I know something before continue studying with other Gadgetman in USA.

Please tell me if you see anything wrong with these bits.

The problem of this incorrect groove might be form my wrong skill instead of using wrong bits. (P1040199)
The biggest bit in the picture (P1040194) is the one that I use to create this incorrect groove.

I will use JB - kwik to fix that incorrect groove and do it again soon.

my car
1. Toyota corolla 1.6L 1994 4a-fe gasoline engine (original)
2. I decide to add the LPG system to save my money. (duel fuel )

Right now , this car can use gasoline and LPG. When the engine start, it use petrol after a few minutes it's automatically switch to LPG. If something wrong with LPG I can turn off the LPG system and continue driving with petrol.

By this way, the correct groove might increase mileage while driving with petrol and then I will tune up the LPG system later.

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newbie 19 Nov 2014 07:26 #4

  • dan
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those are the right bits and the groove looks right from the pic angle what seems to be the problem? no gains or what? we`ll try to walk you through. what was mpg normal and now after groove? dan

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newbie 19 Nov 2014 13:34 #5

  • Tracy Gallaway
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Hi again Bo, my apologies, I didn't know you had the Personal License, in that pic in your first post, it just didn't look like a real Gadgetman bit, I "stuck my foot in my mouth" !! :blush: :oops: :pinch: (Tracy ducks and cowers as Bo throws tomatoes and rotten eggs his way!) yes you have the real bits and training DVD!! :cheer:

I guess the dual fuel conversions adding Propane are more common in Asia and Australasia...never seen one over here in USA. So the Groove is a good move here, it does use gas. So it has automatic controls to switch to propane, does it rely on engine temps to control that?

OK, I stared at the pic of your Groove in you second post, that's good for a first try, you might just do a light clean-up sweep of your Groove with the bit, just make sure to remove some of the high spots in the Groove bottom, but don't get too aggressive or the Groove will get too "loose". It gets easier with practice, my friend. Ive cut a few really ragged-looking Grooves, and had success w/ them anyway.
A good Groove is cut full depth, so the bit shaft (the taper right behind the cutter) touches the throttle bore wall after cutting, and the bit shaft will only have a small amount of wiggle--you take the bit out of Dremel, and set the cutter head into your Groove just as you did. When the cutter is in the Groove, see how much left/right play there is at the shaft end. Ideally, you want full depth of cut, with little left-right shaft "wiggle".

An important step Ron taught us, is after you have cut the Groove,get a bright flashlight, in a dark place, shine the light from in the Groove, and see if there are any break-throughs in the TB casting. Look from both in and outside, do this after every Groove you cut, to avoid any holes. Also, before you begin a Groove, hold the bit against the TB casting to judge if the bit might break through. With practice you can usually tell if any metal epoxy needs to be added in likely break-through spots. If you do break through, you just put a small amount of epoxy in the hole, let it set up, then lightly re-cut the Groove over the the epoxy.










Just to give an idea of what I'm saying, this Groove I did is actually a bit "loose"
IF I could see your Groove better, I could tell how you did, I can't make out the shape very well.
You were smart to get a TB to practice on, Bo! Personally, I use light oil to cool my bits, I have used power steering oil, it gives some lubrication to the bit.

You're doing well, Bo, again my apologies, I thought you were using the wrong bit, it just didn't look like a G-Man bit from that angle to me! You might want to install this TB and give your first Groove a try, it can't hurt. Another tip- is when the engine is warmed up, but running on gas, take a sniff of the tailpipe, before you install the Grooved TB, then same way, after you put Groovy TB on, if the exhaust is moist, but the smell decreases, it's a good sign!

Cheers, Bo, Welcome to Gadgetman Land!! ;) :cheer: :woohoo:

Tracy G
Tracy Gallaway
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Gadgetman Reno, NV

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Last edit: by Tracy Gallaway. Reason: more info as usual

newbie 20 Nov 2014 06:01 #6

  • khunwiputh
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Thank you very much for everyone

I am a real newbie on everything about this modification. Everything might be go on little by little and step by step. I try hard for around more than 6 months to catch up important lessons and try to do it.

I use a little glass of tap water at the left of the picture to cool the bit because I don't want any oil to mix with the aluminum powder that might be the cause of weaken down epoxies bonding later. (I am not sure this is a good idea or not.)

P1040207.JPG


The automatic controls to switch to propane is rely on engine temps. (I try hard to try to explain this on the second post) What a poor my skill in English is!

Fixing my wrong groove (let me talk about it step by step)

I prepare these 3 epoxies (2 from USA and the other one I buy it in Thailand). Which one is good for fixing the groove? I never use JB epoxies. (P1040202)
The third one " PATTEX " I get it here and I am not quite sure about it's quality.

Set up tools (P1040206)
Set up throttle body (P1040211)

mixture of epoxies 1. with aluminum powder 2. without aluminum powder (P1040218)
(like Ron said, the one with aluminum powder dry very fast)

Fill epoxies in the groove and mess up the throttle body like that and the plate cannot close . I get shock!! (I feel like killing it a second time) (P1040224)

I paint the plate to black. (P1040210) By this way scratch marks can easily see when I groove it again later.

I cannot post more than 8 pictures

let's continue to path2

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newbie 20 Nov 2014 06:40 #7

  • khunwiputh
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Path2

The plate cannot close because of messy epoxy. (P1040234)

after all process I can get this good.

there is a little light pass through the plate (P1040250) This might be because of I remove too much of
material or the plate is not good at the first so the garage throw it away and give it to me. I am not quite sure on that because I am not taking this type of photo before doing this.

Is there anyway to fix this problem?

every suggestion from everyone help me gain my experience a lot on this grooving technology

I will groove it again next post.

Thank you very much

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newbie 20 Nov 2014 20:19 #8

  • Tracy Gallaway
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Bo, from experience JB Quick sets up in 15-30 minutes, there is a point when it's like a plastic, when it's about half dry. Then can be cut/shaped with a sharp knife. After it's dry it can be smoothed with fine sandpaper, easier control w/ a piece of sandpaper by hand then a Dremel sanding roll by my experience. I learned to slightly over-fill with JB quick, and cut/file or sand it down after it's set. I agree w/ you on filling in a Groove to do over, I'd use water to cool bit in that case instead of oil to avoid contamination of epoxy.
I've never painted a throttle blade, but I have outlined a finished Groove w/ black felt pen for visual contrast. Ron told us it's OK to have scuff marks on the blade, happens to me every time. In the pics I posted above, the plate is shiny, 'cause I did plate shaping to it, removing the bit scuffs.
Unfortunately I wrongly thought you were using some type of cut down cutter bit to do your Groove job the bit looked wrong to me in the first pic. There is a good chance your first Groove could have worked. But you're becoming familiar w/ metal epoxies and different techniques. I use different things to apply epoxy to give me pinpoint control where I put it-an old flat blade screwdriver, a narrow popsicle wooden stick, whatever. In becoming a Gadgetman you learn to improvise and figure stuff out. I learned to closely look at whatever TB I'm going to Groove. Some of the details of Grooving are in the training DVD, the rest you learn as you go.
You can continue on w/ this TB, or just find another and start again.


I see there is an Idle Air Control (IAC) bypass channel in this TB. See the big wide black trench below the Groove area, and the square ridge just above the upstream center of throttle plate. Notice that square ridge has a hole in it. I so far don't see the Idle Air Control valve itself in your pics, it may be off of this TB. Anyhow, look at this square ridge/hole, see if/how it has a tunnel going to that big trench under the Groove. That's an IAC system, the IAC valve would mount to TB, and control bypass air through this hole and trench. Next- see the 2 square openings in the bottom trench, these openings are where IAC idle air dumps into the inlet air stream. How much air the IAC valve allows through this top square hole, bypassing the closed throttle at idle, and dumping in below the closed throttle blade, determines engine idle speed (RPM). The engine needs air to run-but the throttle plate is closed at idle. The IAC valve and air passages let the needed air in for the engine to run at idle. The IAC valve, opens up more at cold start, to give a higher idle speed, then starts to close off the airflow through the passages as engine warms up. The more IAC is open, the higher the idle RPM is, the computer controls this. It also can open more when you run the air conditioning (if the car has it) to support engine idle load when A/C is on at idle. This is normal and OK.

I'm going to talk of a slightly "advanced Gadgetman technique" next. Bo, you can apply this to this TB, now or later, if you want.

In our case, you have to look at a TB and think of how the airflow is, air behaves as a fluid. I see a problem w/ the upstream raised square ridge around the hole, and w/ the right side square opening in the bottom trench. Ron taught us that in many cases the IAC valve, NEVER completely closes. This means- some air is entering the engine, and it's NOT going in through the Groove, instead the IAC airflow, whenever the IAC is open, goes AROUND and bypasses the throttle plate. We are trying to enhance manifold vacuum, remember, in the training DVD? But this IAC flow is adding in air much like a vacuum leak. Plus, see that square opening at right side of bottom trench--see how it's downstream from right side of the Groove? IAC air is going to dump in there, and disrupt part of the Groove's "waveform". The left side trench opening, it's just about under the throttle shaft, pretty much out of the way of the Groove's "waveform" so it's probably OK to leave the left side opening alone.

That square ridge in the casting, around the IAC entry hole above the closed plate, well that ridge is going to disrupt the boundary air, the air going in that sticks to the TB casting's bore wall, and is crucial to building the smaller tighter rotating air vortex in the Groove. I would use the sanding roll on your Dremel, and carefully smooth down that square ridge, just get that ridge gone and keep the existing round shape of the bore wall. I might smooth it down w/ fine sandpaper after the sanding roll.

For that right side bottom trench opening--Bo, if you can use spray carb. clean or brakeclean, or whatever, get the black crud out of that trench, and shoot a pic or two of that trench so we can see it good. I'll give details of what I'd do to it after I can see inside that trench clearly. I'll probably recommend some epoxy work in that area. By the way, I learned, to first completely clean all crud and carbon from a TB, before I do anything else. This way there's no solvents interfering w/ any epoxy work! Also Bo, with any IAC valve, I ALWAYS completely clean off all crud/carbon from the round pintle end, the actual valve that opens/closes to control air in the IAC passages. A dirty IAC valve can stick open, and cause sudden un-controlled dangerous high idle RPM. That can cause a traffic accident! :angry:

Bo, we're glad you're here, and thanks for posting so many pics of your work, you are learning a lot now! Plus these posts, will help other Gadgetmen learn as well! You're doing well! ;)

Tracy G
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newbie 20 Nov 2014 20:43 #9

  • Tracy Gallaway
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Bo, I just looked at that pic where you said light shows at the edge of plate. IT doesn't look too bad, I can't tell if that's the bore wall being uneven, or the plate edge itself. Maybe the bore wall there is a bit uneven? If the plate edge is rashed up- then this TB may be no good, but still good practice, Bo.
I think I got my answer about the bottom big IAC trench. I see the air entry hole about at bottom center, that's the air hole from the IAC valve.( P1040250 JPG) But if you can clean that trench out, and get a good pic to be sure, I'll wait to see.

(P1040234JPG) and (P1040248JPG) does anyone else see what I see there? Look at the shape of that IAC entry hole--that's a modified NACA duct!! that Bell- shape... I've never seen that shape on any other TB before! Look at jet aircraft pics and you will see this same shape for fuselage air inlet ducts, some design engineer was thinking on this one! I'd still smooth down the surrounding ridge some, though, the thing is right above the Groove's crucial center area.

Tracy G
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Gadgetman Reno, NV

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newbie 21 Nov 2014 02:43 #10

  • khunwiputh
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At first, I plan to fix the groove again. I change my mind to concentrate on taking more photo of this throttle body. So, everyone can see it clearly. (Please tell me if my pictures is not clear cut enough. I will do it again later.)

Another throttle body that I prepare to cut the groove after everything finish with the dead one. (P1040256)

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newbie 21 Nov 2014 04:23 #11

  • khunwiputh
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Hole that I put a copper wire through (P1040266)

Another hole (P1040269)

The pass way of another hole (the way of P1040269) (P1040300)

This 2 screw might be something I don't know (P1040278)

Focus on old pic (P1040250) (P1040307) + (P1040308) + (P1040310)
This picture might be right, I can see only 1 hole. If it isn't I will do it again.

Open 2 screws from (P1040278) (P1040281)

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newbie 21 Nov 2014 05:04 #12

  • khunwiputh
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continue taking pictures from last post

After that I put everything back

Continue remove these 4 screws (P1040271)

If these is not clear. I will do it again next post.

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