TOPIC: newbie

newbie 22 Nov 2014 00:18 #13

  • Tracy Gallaway
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Hi Bo, thanks for all the pics! :) OK- this gizmo with the water heat nipples and the bigger nipple, and the electric controller--I THINK this is an Idle Air Control, and has a water heat passage also. Could you please look on the car and see what the hose on the big nipple goes to? The two smaller nipples are for water heat supply, I don't know what that big third hose is for. It's like they combined something else in w/ this thing??

See, IAC is usually a control valve, that lets in filtered air to under the throttle plate to regulate idle speed. There must be a source of filtered air, from ABOVE the plate, (upstream). On this TB, we have that odd opening in the bore of TB, above the plate, that looks like the upstream air entry point. We have that trench in the casting w/ the hole in the center, below the plate, that has the two openings to the throttle bore. The strange thing is the 3rd bigger nipple, in P1040313 that connects to both openings in this thing.

Bo, see where this 3rd hose goes to. On the 2nd hand good TB you have, I would just clean it up, you can clean any carbon or crud out of it. You can Groove it. But we need to know what the hose on the 3rd big nipple goes to. This TB is a bit strange, and It's already fooled me, so I won't advise anything else till I know about the 3rd hose nipple. This Groove job is going to teach me something!! Again thanks for so many pics Bo!

Tracy G
Tracy Gallaway
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newbie 22 Nov 2014 21:56 #14

  • Karl411
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Hey Bo,

Welcome to the forum.
Been reading your posts and it looks like you are very detailed with all the pics.
Its a good thing to take pics so those who see them can possibly help you here.
Tracy and Dan are the two main experts so if they cant help you, dont think anybody else can.
Just be patient with the groove since so many have had good success with it as long as thier vehicle is in proper running/tuned condition
The TB you have does look strange to me but then again, I have not seen enough. Have seen TB's with anti-freeze hoses hooked up to them and with all those ports you have, I can just guess that one of them does have AF running thru it.

From what I have been reading like it looks like you have been doing some research here before trying the groove which is a good thing. Here is a quote from you below:

I use a little glass of tap water at the left of the picture to cool the bit because I don't want any oil to mix with the aluminum powder that might be the cause of weaken down epoxies bonding later. (I am not sure this is a good idea or not.)


Yes that is a good idea and shows that you have been listening to what Ron does since he says to save the shavings in case you have to epoxy fill since the shavings help strengthen the fill and it supposedly dries quicker. Using oil would contaminate the shavings for that use.

There is a host of information on this forum to glean information from to help you learn.
On another note. Since you are outside of the US and Europe, that may be to your advantage.
Have corresponded with others from Indonesia and other south Asian/pacific regions and it seems when they do a mod to their vehicle, they tend to have more success on the whole. Just guessing that it may be the type of gas and/or that the ECU is not programmed in such a strict way to foil mods as here in the US. Seems like we have to work harder here to get results with certain mods where others in your region will have success with the mod the first time trying it. Like I said, in my opinion its either the gas and/or the ECU. :huh:
Its good to have an idea of what you MPG or KPG was before you groove so you can see what change has taken place. I have a ScangaugeII which gives me my MPG, TPS, water temps,and a host of other info one might want to know. Also gives me the codes for the check engine light so I know what is going wrong with the system. They sell them for about $160 if you are interested in picking one up.

Thanks again for your posts and pics and keep trying. If anyone here has an answer to your problems, we will be glad to help.
Karl

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Last edit: by Karl411.

newbie 24 Nov 2014 05:31 #15

  • khunwiputh
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Sorry that I am not available 2 days before.
Right now my work can be continue with my newbie skill.

It's difficult for take a good picture of where a bigger nipple goes. However, I try and these photo is a result. Please tell me if these picture are not clear enough I will try to do it again.

The way this Throttle body installation (P1040393)
This is where the bigger nipple start. (P1040396)

It's no way to take good pictures with everything set in place like that.
I decide to remove the throttle body (the first time of my life) with my newbie skill.


This (chop stick) point is where the line from the big nipple start. (P1040409) (P1040411)
like you says, when I remove this little line water comes out. (P1040416)

Again, this is where the line from the big nipple start (P1040419)
This (chop stick) point is where the line from the nipple end. (P1040420)


This is not end.
See you again next post.

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newbie 24 Nov 2014 06:29 #16

  • khunwiputh
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I remove the line from the big nipple. (P1040423)
I remove the throttle body and clean it up with tissue paper. (P1040427)
It's getting dark. This is the result after cleaning. (P1040428)
This is the end of the line. (from big nipple) (P1040429)

I can do nothing more for today because it's getting dark.

Two days ago while I am not available.I can not sleep very well just focus on thinking about how hard and difficulty that everybody in this forum have to face while teaching me to finish this technology on my car. It is something more than a great help.

I feel , .... it's deep down to my heart more than the word " Thanks for a great help ".


Especially " Tracy G " " Dan " " Karl411 " and everyone in this forum.

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newbie 24 Nov 2014 19:05 #17

  • Tracy Gallaway
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OK, Bo, you're doing good. I see that hose that goes on the big nipple. I looked at that pic of where you think it ends, but I can't see enough to tell where/what it goes to. IT might go to ( guessing here) the EVAP system-the fuel vapors from gas tank, going to a charcoal storage canister. It may even go to the valve cover, and be the fresh air breather hose for the PCV system. For now, try to trace out that hose and figure out where the other end goes to. I'd be surprised if it goes direct to the intake manifold. Try sniffing the open TB end of the hose, do you smell gas vapor?
I can think of a couple tests to do if it remains a mystery of where it goes to. Let's leave it alone for now, we may later remove the TB after the Groove to modify the IAC system, it's not vital to do that yet. I appreciate your photo efforts here, you have probably dome the best job ever of documenting your efforts with pics. :cheer: ;)
I've done a fair amount of figuring out things like this before, so it's pretty easy for me. But, as you are new to much of this, I think it best to do this one bit at a time. It will be easier for you, less to think/ worry about. We will be more able to avoid problems this way. In the end you will learn a lot from all this!
So, let's concentrate on getting a good Groove done on your Toyota. We can go back into it and go into the more involved stuff later. Now, you see it's not so hard to remove the TB. I'd get a new mounting base gasket for it now. It's good you have a spare complete TB, plus the original.

Basics- Bo, do you have a good idea of the car's fuel economy? Is it running well overall, no problems? How long since you replaced spark plugs, and dist. cap/rotor? How many miles or KM on it? (I forget if you said). Does it have just one Oxygen sensor, has it ever been replaced? Does a check engine light ever come on in the instrument panel? Do you change the oil on schedule? Have you ever smelled the exhaust pipe when engine is hot at idle?

For the Groove to work well, we need a good-running vehicle, w/ no present problems. The Groove won't cure existing problems. If maintenance and "state of tune" are good, we have a good Groove candidate car. The 2 most common things that rob gains from the Groove, are manifold vacuum leaks, and bad/old O2 sensors. That's IF there are no other known issues! Vacuum leaks- look at all hoses that go to intake manifold vacuum, inspect each for cracks, swelling etc. The Groove will turn small leaks into big ones so look at all the vacuum connections. A hand vacuum pump can test hoses/lines that dead end to something operated by vacuum, like the power brake booster, and anything w/ a vacuum diaphragm in it. Start by looking close, and feeling along hoses, if in doubt, replace/fix them!! Very Important to do this, Bo! One good thing for you, is I'm guessing Thailand is a wet climate, so I'd expect fewer dried-out hoses and anything rubber. Corrosion in/on metal is probably the environment issue there. It never snows there, right? (lucky you! :P )

So, think about these questions, and do please give us pics of when you Groove the TB. Show us the bit angle you use if you can. Don't worry about being perfect, I think your first one would have worked. Check the Groove afterwards w/ a flashlight from in and outside, if it didn't break through before, then you probably won't need epoxy yet. Once you have done the Groove, and checked/fixed vacuum hoses, we can go on, there's a good bag of Tricks to use later. BTW, if you don't use/ need epoxy, I'd advise some light oil to dip the bit in, like power steer. oil, or auto. trans fluid, light oil does a good job to cool/preserve the bits. If you do break thru, but haven't put epoxy yet, you can clean it off w/ brakecleaner spray to remove any oil.

OK enough from me for now, you're doing GREAT, BO!! :cheer: ;)

Tracy G
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Gadgetman Reno, NV

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newbie 05 Dec 2014 19:38 #18

  • mike tompkins
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nice pic I am new to

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newbie 08 Dec 2014 03:41 #19

  • khunwiputh
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sorry that I post keep a bit long to continue my post because of where the other end of that nipple is ?
let me continue that in this post

I goes to the second hand engine shop. A man over there show me this engine (Not the same but it's closely the same of my engine 4a-fe) (P1040482)

The throttle body is the same (P1040487 - P1040488)

The line from the big nipple goes to the back of the engine. So , I cannot take any good photo right there.
This engine might be better. If it's not I will try to do it again later. (P1040489 - P1040491)

Again! Show where the whole system of that big nipple goes to. (P1040492 - P1040493)

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newbie 08 Dec 2014 04:44 #20

  • khunwiputh
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This post might be something strange about the oxygen sensor of my engine (4a-fe)
Let's get back to my engine (4a-fe)

I remove a plastic heat shield to see exhaust manifold. (P1040498)
I use my hand around this area but I cannot fine any oxygen sensor. (P1040499 - P1040500)

There is an oxygen sensor under my car. (P1040026 - P1040028) This engine might be only one oxygen sensor.
It is a 4 wire oxygen sensor.

Let me talk a litle bit about this sensor.

It's path number is TOYOTA 89465 - 12340 ND 065500-3691. At the Denso website, I see a lof 4 wires oxygen sensor but none of them are exactly the same path numbers.

When I talk about that path number with a technician at the Toyota service center in Thailand, he give me 2 different path number ( 89465 19495 and 89465 19575 )but none of them in the stock.

I have no idea that the engine seemed to has only one oxygen sensor while a technician give me 2 different path number.

What can I do with that problem to replace that oxygen sensor.
Can I try something that has 4 wires but different in path number (such as denso 234-4209).

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Last edit: by khunwiputh. Reason: 2 more pictures about oxygen sensor

newbie 08 Dec 2014 05:04 #21

  • khunwiputh
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Let's talk about the groove.
This is the second time I do the groove. (P1040471 - P1040474)

I don't know about it. But it's not not good for me .

I try it again next post.

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newbie 08 Dec 2014 05:35 #22

  • khunwiputh
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This is what I am trying to do for this groove.

But I get this. (P1040505)

I do the first cut a little bit too far from the plate while it goes half way. So, I get it close to the plate and cut it again. (P1040510)

The bit lock in place. (P1040513)
I try to show about the angle cut. Is this time be better? Os something wrong again!! (P1040514)

Please tell me about this cut and I will try to do it again.

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newbie 08 Dec 2014 09:05 #23

  • Karl411
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Hey Bo,

Most cars have 2 or 4 oxygen sensors here in the US and I would guess it would be the same overseas.
One is usually found right off the engine somewhere on the exhaust pipe. At least that is where it was on mine. The second one is usually found right after the catalytic converter on the exhaust pipe.
Again that is where you usually find them here in the US.
One thing I have learned is that its important to get the exact 02 sensors for your vehicle from a dealer who deals with your Toyota. Try to save the 02 sensor and dont throw it out. It should have numbers on it and you need those numbers if it is the original sensor. Make sure you get those numbers and go back to the dealer or any dealer that has that exact # you find on the old sensors.

Tracy will help you with your groove questions when he gets home from work.
Karl




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Last edit: by Karl411.

newbie 08 Dec 2014 13:31 #24

  • Tracy Gallaway
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Hello Bo! OK I'm guessing you are still working on the practice TB. The cut is sorta choppy, but you did try to get it to "full depth". IT takes practice. One thing I learned is to put the TB in some kind of vice, to free my hands to control the Dremel. I use a Panavice, it adjusts in all directions, but any vice that gives a comfortable work angle is OK, just use rags or something to protect TB from damage. Ron and others can Groove while holding it in one hand, not me! Again, always check your work w/ a bright flashlight in a dark place look for any breakthru's. I work from the far left end to right, I do the first cut then move 1/2 bit width to right, keeping close watch on the bit angle. I dip in light oil after each cut to cool bit, I will use water if cutting epoxy sometimes, or if I think I will be using epoxy. Avoid the throttle plate shaft at each end, do half-bit width cuts, overlapping, and hold dremel flex shaft tool end steady. don't force it let the tool do the work. I will re-position the TB in the vice so I am always cutting down, not trying to work "uphill". Vice makes big difference for me! ;)

Here's the story of one of my early Groove jobs on an 89 Nissan Maxima. It has a 2 barrel TB, first cut broke thru w/ large bit, I epoxy'd outside of cut and re-cut thru the epoxy in Groove to smooth it out, then cut second Groove w/ Med. bit(paranoid). I called this the cave-man Grooves, they were 2 diff. size and rough... and STILL worked!

I later re-cut these Grooves, smoothing the large one and re-cutting the med. one w/ a Large bit, and it got even better, my point is you will get better w/ time and practice. The Groove IS fussy, but sometimes Perfect is enemy of Good enough! Now on your latest Groove, did you change bit sizes? There is a large cut on left end, it's sorta rough overall, you concentrated on getting the depth of cut. When you get to right end, Ron showed us you can do a left-hand pass back thru the whole Groove to clean it up. You gave a screen shot of Ron where Ron shows how the bit taper should be parallel to the TB bore wall- that is EXACTLY correct. Maintaining this angle when you cut, and cutting till the taper touches the bore wall..till where the bit won't cut any deeper, is the technique. I use good lighting to see what I'm doing, use the vice to hold TB, and rotate the TB in the vice as I go so I'm cutting downwards not uphill, dip bit in oil/water after each cut. Then when I think I'm done, I remove bit from Dremel flex-shaft to see if bit went full depth, and how tight the bit fits the Groove. IT's never been perfect, but I keep trying each time.

The O2 sensor, yours is '94, so maybe only the one O2. 4 wires- it's a heated O2 I'd need to research exactly which type. IF they say there are 2 different part#'s try giving the Toyota parts man the VIN# and build date, look around on car, sometimes there is decal in driver door jam or underhood with date of manufacture. Toyota might have had a mid-year change in O2 sensors, OR it might have to do w/ what country's emissions standards it was made to meet. A good Parts-man will know about this stuff. But it's best to get correct Toyota original factory dealer part.


That extra vacuum hose in IAC- We can figure this out but it's not critical yet. Look under your car's hood see if there is a decal w/ a diagram of the vacuum system for your engine. Or, you might look in a service manual for your car. Those are great pics, but it's still confusing. I see the nipple in center of intake plenum, just above the runners, sticking right out, engine rear,, points right toward the firewall I think. See what goes on that one. IT's obviously a vac. hose nipple. IF you can find a book with a vacuum circuit picture/diagram of your EXACT car/engine, and take a clear pic of that diagram, Or if there is a vacuum circuit decal under your hood, a pic of that. I can prob. figure it all out if I can see that decal or book diagram. To do much work on any car, you need a good book/manual anyway. Or at least look in a auto parts store or Library if available. sorry Bo for the huge long answer, we're trying to figure out several things at once here! :P B) :cheer:

Tracy G
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Gadgetman Reno, NV

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Last edit: by Tracy Gallaway. Reason: Tons of more info!!
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