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TOPIC: 4.3 Vortec CPI...

4.3 Vortec CPI... 02 Jul 2015 23:14 #1

  • Grant Goldade
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Working on a 1995 S10 Blazer with the 4.3 Vortec CPI injection.. these early ones have a throttle body that is cast as one with the upper intake manifold... any ideas on grooving such an intake?

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4.3 Vortec CPI... 03 Jul 2015 01:49 #2

  • Tracy Gallaway
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Need a reverse bit from certified License set for this. Mark a line behind the throttle plate and carefully Groove this. A tough one to Groove. Might be possible though I have the Certified bits. If you post more pics show the underside, and from the front w/ throttle closed and wide open, I can give better opinion on this one. The large Certified reverse bit can make a shallow Groove, but won't equal the large regular one. But the "double Groove trick" ala' Sergei the Russian G-Man might increase overall effect, another Certified bit technique.


This is a pretty big engine in an S10 Blazer, should be good power to weight ratio. Give it a real good tune up, premium low resistance plug wires, dist cap/rotor and plugs. Increase tire pressure. PCV re-route. MPG Remedy in the gas. Look in the fuel savers tab on front site page--could treat whole powertrain w/ RVS. Since manifold is off engine?? you will eliminate any gasket related vac. leaks upon re-installation.

Anything to increase power at lower throttle settings, and anything to reduce parasitic losses. More responsive engine can give gains if driven the right way.

Even without the Groove results can be obtained on one like this.

Tracy G
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Last edit: by Tracy Gallaway. Reason: more info

4.3 Vortec CPI... 05 Jul 2015 15:58 #3

  • Grant Goldade
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Tracy, right now I'm working on the basics. My Jeep with 316000+ blew up a few weeks ago and I scored this project vehicle for $200... cuz it lived up to its name/ Blazer... previous owner had a small engine fire and I had to replace the harness. It's up and running now, already beat epa mileage on the 3rd tank but have fresh O2 sensors and more on the way. I've reworked the pvc and evap. Testing the power brake booster as I believe there is a vac leak there due to the fire. I'll check into the RVS for sure, just ordered some Cerma...looks very similar. I'll get more pics and be in touch regarding sending it to you for grooving. Possibly a better option would be to swap to the marine intake with a more convention throttle body and port injection. Looking into a custom ecm swap to allow further tuning and running with a WB O2. I have a cabinet full of mileage devices I've collected and have some alpha/beta tuning enhancements from Mike Holler to help.
Thanks for the tips. I have a lot of reading to catch up on here.

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4.3 Vortec CPI... 05 Jul 2015 18:41 #4

  • Tracy Gallaway
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hi Grant ( I assume that's you))
If there is a later model intake setup for this 4.3L and it's adaptable to this Blazer, I'd go w/ it! I looked at Grooving one of these critters a few yrs back, but declined due to the design. I've never examined this intake off an engine. A separate TB is definitely better esp. if it's sequential port inj. I thing this Central Injection setup is kinda like the early Bosch mechanical injection, it squirts in just one or two sequences I think...

BTW, do you have a PL kit? I don't recall seeing you here before, I've been around here since Feb. of 2012, and Collette Thomas can't find any record of you having a Personal License. It's cool for you to be here and all--no prob, I just don't know the score on the PL for ya. :)

Back to the Blazer- the 4.3 Vortec CPI I looked at to see about Grooving, it was in a Chevy Astro van, I declined to Groove it, but did a major tuneup on it, and it ran quite strong. I didn't have the Certified License kit back then. Even w/ the Certified bits, this CPI manifold would be a lot of work, I'm pretty sure we can get better results on the separate TB port inj. one! I think I remember that this intake/TB combo the inlet duct had a curved section just downstream of the throttle blade-- or not I'm not sure, I just recall looking at it in the van and thinking right away " Uh-Uh!"

Sounds like you've been at this awhile, esp. if you know who Mike Hollar is! Did you ever meet or talk to Ron Hatton? He left us with a LOT of info and experience and we keep chipping away at it. We have our own group of Rabbit Holes here in the Park of Forbidden Knowledge, and I Welcome you back in. We try to "enlarge and connect" these rabbit holes so we all get better as we go. I hope you will share your knowledge with us here :cheer: when I got my PL from Ron, he asked me to be active in the forum, and to use my name as my login here, it makes it easier to know who we are speaking with.

Last- I'm always interested in anything Mike Hollar has done, he and Ron are guru's for us!

Tracy G
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4.3 Vortec CPI... 06 Jul 2015 10:50 #5

  • Grant Goldade
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No, I didn't get a PL, are they still available?

I wasn't sure what the status on the groove was with Ron's absence. I did find a local PL owner but would like to get my own PL or get permission to have him do mine with Ron's blessing.
I spoke to Ron a few times over the years, as well as Bruce McBurney and most any high mileage guy I could find. I have worked with Mike for about 20 years now on various projects. We are close enough my 3rd born is actually named after him. Mike and I started many years ago on our own sites and eventually worked with Pantone as part of the R&D team and later with Better World Technologies / Dennis Lee before moving on to other various projects/consulting etc.
Other things have kept me out of the mileage 'hobby' till just recently and I'm changing priorities and getting involved once again .

I'm currently trying to sell of other stuff I've hoarded over the years in hopes of making room in my shop so I can build/play with mileage/energy technologies once again. I'm familiar with pretty much all of the mileage forums but after lurking for some time find this the one I like best.


Regards,

Grant Goldade

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4.3 Vortec CPI... 06 Jul 2015 12:16 #6

  • Karl411
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Welcome to the site Grant!!!
Very impressed with your experience as with the connections of mileage guru's we all know or have heard about and respect.
Pantone really impressed me with his GEET system. Would want to have one of my own if it wasnt for the complexity of building something like that.
Rubbing shoulders with the ones you mentioned is a privaledge and hopefully you have absorbed some of the knowledge they know.
This is another good place to knock around ideas or pass on what we have learned.
Karl

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4.3 Vortec CPI... 06 Jul 2015 18:35 #7

  • Tracy Gallaway
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Grant,I'd like to get an appointment for a Vulcan Mind-Meld session so I can download everything you know! :silly:

So were you working w/ Mike at Dennis Lee's facility in NJ on HAFC or PICC? To have been there, to have been w/ Paul Pantone, and Bruce McBurney too...and you and Mike go back 20 years.....
The only Guru's I know of you haven't mentioned working with are Ron Hatton and Dan Merrick.

Well you are certainly most welcome here, Grant. And thank you for the compliment about this site and Forum. Hearing that from you means a lot to me.

And-yes PL's are still available, contact: This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

Collette Thomas is Managing Director for the Website and she handles sales of PL kits, still just $500.00. I recommend a Dremel 4000 and a dremel flexshaft, and a good vice, I use a Panavice model 301 to hold TB's in for Grooving. If you did head porting w/ Mike then you may already have similar gear. But the Gadgetman bits are completely unique found only here.

The PL comes w/ Ron Hatton's 2013 training DVD. for a refresher or further insights, I'd go to the youtube channels GadgetmanGlobal or Groovy Service Bulletins, look for Ron's whiteboard vid's.

And the Index button at top of the Index page leads to the archives of posts here. There's too many subjects in there to mention, but a lot of good stuff. A lot of Gadgetmen and visitors come here to read, but it would be good to have even more discussions and new ideas and challenges to kick around.

Since the Gadgetman Groove is a nearly universal modification, the topics have been both highly focused and macro in scope.

Back to you and Mike for a second- were you involved during the backroom development of PICC? That felt like a real Manhattan Project to me, I'd love to know anything of it!! I'm always hungry to unlock principles and known "tricks", as long as no one's intellectual property is pilfered. A big part of why I got involved w/ Ron Hatton and the Groove was because it was something tested proven and ready to apply NOW, not just a theoretical thing.

anyhow, Welcome aboard Grant!! :woohoo:

Tracy G
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4.3 Vortec CPI... 07 Jul 2015 17:36 #8

  • Grant Goldade
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Thanks for the warm welcomes.

My mileage background:

I only wish I remembered everything I once knew. They say the memory is the second thing to go.

I started modding cars at a young age and obsessed with fuel economy. The Carb Research Center of Foyil OK, got me started with early books from Allan Wallace, "Secrets of the 100 mpg Carb" series of books and the early Hyco stuff from Wiseman.
I chased down Don Novak, Allan Wallace, Ogle's business associates anyone I could that had ever gotten extreme fuel economy. A friend of Pogue once called me. He had a carb for sale. I was broke so contacted Don Garlits and it now sits in his museum.

My relationship with Mike started when he replied to my ad in a magazine (in print!) remember those? The first time I called him it lasted 4 or 5 hours....that became the norm in a time before flat rate long distance, our phone bills exceeded rent.
Mike, his wife Faith, and I started an online sight promoting energy/fuel economy etc.

I found Bruce in the early days of the internet. It was his connections/contacts that got Mike and I involved with Pantone/GEET. Both of us becoming dealers and Mike moving to SLC to work Research and Dev. I was brought in a couple times to work summers in the shop and at one point earned status as a key player in the business plan. It was a dream 'job'. Doing what we love/obsess over. Meeting an elite group of inventors.

Attending various Tesla and Exotic Research conferences allowed me to meet my "hero's"... Paul Pantone, George Wiseman, Joe Newman, Stan Meyer, Dennis Lee, Jeane Manning, Eugene Mallove and others.

My work in NJ... was primarily with the HAFC kit. I helped consult to resolve issues with their early unit. I helped develop the controls and training program and became a Master Trainer for the HAFC kit. (Still have access to a few if anyone is interested).

The PICC was a continuation of the GEET and came about from a brief period of time when Pantone and Lee worked together as I recall. If I'm not mistaken was called the TEEG ? :)

At any rate, I've been in a sort of semi retired funk in regards to mileage and it's time to start playing again. The toys/tech that was in the various shops was amazing...yet nearly 20 years later... still isn't in wide spread use... wtf?

For now I'm getting my new test vehicle road worthy. Plugs, wires, tuneup(grade) O2's lubes etc.
At this point it still has issues but I'm above EPA rating for it :)
Seriously tossing the PL around, but at this point I don't know if the budget allows me to put $$ into something I can't even use on my demo vehicle. Maybe later with an intake and ecm swap (to something tunable)... Part of the challenge for me is to do it cost effectively/cheap. I just parted ways with a free Jeep Liberty, a gift from my sister in law... Drove two years and got to 316xxx miles before she gave it up. Sold it for $400 and the spare engine/trans misc parts I had laying around for that much more.. that is my baseline budget to get the replacement / Blazer on the road.


Grant

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4.3 Vortec CPI... 07 Jul 2015 18:27 #9

  • Tracy Gallaway
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that's some backround Grant! So you helped w/ the first run HAFC's? I have one of the first ones to get shipped.

I've read into about everyone on your life history list, I have in the box an eagle research HYCO kit never installed. Yes you're right about Mike. I've had a few 4-5 hour phone calls w/ him too.

IT must have been heady to work w/ Paul Pantone, Bruce McBurney and Dennis Lee. I too realized that PICC and GEET were very nearly the same thing, I discussed this on my first call to my Dealer in Florida. I was sorely disappointed when the Feds shut Dennis Lee down, I followed that whole saga closely.

Why aren't any of these devices and concepts more widely used? It's well-understood by those who delve into these things, and especially Inventors in this field- Vested Interest. I think also the Public mostly are still swayed by what mainstream Media tells them. So much of all this is to be added on to existing cars, with varying success and difficulty. Aftermarket mods have always had varying degrees of success and acceptance. Then too these technologies are cutting across the grain of existing vehicle design parameters. Improving MPG's is a challenge when the car is DESIGNED to waste fuel! BTW- Aaron Murakami is going to be speaking about Plasma Ignition for waste spark Ignitions at the Science conference in Couer'D' Alene Idaho in just a couple days, he's said that info will be forthcoming soon.

with the Gadgetman Groove though I've found something that is generally applicable to gasoline engines, and does work. There is more challenge to doing this than simply bolting on a part- you develop a skill set, and expand understanding as you go. Once the PL is in hand, you develop a skill that is repeatable. BTW- I think Mike has a bit set- you might speak to him about that Vortec intake... Mike had some interesting insights about the Groove, I wish we heard more from him!

Meanwhile Grant, you might take a page from Greg (Heysoundude) in here and his experiences w/ Pre-Groove Vehicle Prep. Remember Dennis Lee's idea of how the HAFC was like having some hors'd'orderves while waiting for the PICC main course? Well Greg did much the same thing here, serving himself our "side tricks" while saving up $$ for his PL kit, and quite successfully too! ;) And having been a Master Trainer w/ Mike, Paul Pantone, and Dennis Lee's stuff, I'll bet you can throw in a few "tricks" of your own to add to the menu here!! (things that are widely applicable that improve efficiency). :woohoo: We strive for win-win stuff here!

So you're welcome to stick around, and Stay tuned, Grant. I and others here really value quality knowledge and Experience. Let's keep chipping away! :)

Tracy G
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4.3 Vortec CPI... 07 Jul 2015 18:34 #10

  • Karl411
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My work in NJ... was primarily with the HAFC kit. I helped consult to resolve issues with their early unit. I helped develop the controls and training program and became a Master Trainer for the HAFC kit. (Still have access to a few if anyone is interested).

I still have the HAFC kit sitting in my attic. Purchased it years ago but when I heard you really needed to have it installed right and the right mechanics were in NJ, I kind of lost hope in getting it installed. Then I heard about the PICC being even more efficient and coming out soon after but still had to make two trips to NJ for installation and pick up. Just too much trouble.
Plus I know someone in MO who had it installed and had problems with thier car kept conking out so it was another reason to not make the trip. Didnt want to go through all that trouble only to find out there may be problems. I think it was her mechanic in MO who may not have installed it correctly.
Its a shame with all your knowledge that you didnt make a good career out of it.
Would think that with gas prices and inflation that you would have the world knocking at your door for better mileage. I know I would if I thought you could do it for me.
Glad you are here Grant. Hope to learn from you.
Kinda like a star in our eyes seeing the people you rubbed shoulders with and the knowledge you have.
Karl

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4.3 Vortec CPI... 09 Jul 2015 09:29 #11

  • GregK
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Yes, let me echo TracyG's and Karl411's requests and encouragement to stick around and share knowledge/experience, Grant, please! You guys who have been around for decades, working in whatever capacity to improve the efficiency of ICEs...well, we need you now more than ever before. You have the hard earned "knowledge" (and I use quotes to equate yours with the test London Cabbies must pass before being licensed, because surely yours is as great or greater), and I hope you'll be kind enough to share it here.

Best,
Greg

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4.3 Vortec CPI... 05 Nov 2015 14:07 #12

  • Tracy Gallaway
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I'm giving a reply to this thread, to illustrate both the Stellar people, and ideas for getting gains many have found. The conversation with Grant Goldade here shows the depth of knowledge held by the folks who have come this way. This site is like a disjointed tunnel with side shafts touching into many different major gold Strikes. Talking w/ Grant Goldade in this thread really got my spine tingling! Grant really got around...!! :woohoo:

Grant, do ya still come here, how's it going w/ the Blazer? Your inputs here would really be appreciated!

Hello...? :)

Tracy G
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