TOPIC: 2012 LX Honda Civic 1.8 Liter

Just the remedy? No PCV reroute, no increased plug gap?
This is a great start, like my truck...
How far from Dan are you? I'd make that time. You'll be at 50+ before you know it!

Great news, Ken!!

MPG hooch, I love it! If it works, DO IT!

Tracy G

I am 412 miles from sweet springs MO, so there and back would be $65 bucks in gas.

At these numbers I might send Dan an email with questions about his cold vapor system. I'd rather not wire into any sensors before we get out of our warranty period but for another 15-20% out of this thing I might make an exception.

2 birds, one stone is the way I think too.
Dan's cold vapor system intrigues me as well...
Only one way to find out!

Just received dans vortex system basic kit, now just to figure out how to hook it up and groove this puppy. Should be fun and prove to be very interesting.

If I see 55 or more i'll be ordering the remaining body under-panels that the fuel efficient civic comes with. There is a tank and rear undercarriage panel with fines to help with windforce under the car, secretly i've been wanting these panels for a while just to see how much they help on the hwy.


Ken

Ken, best of luck to you w/ this. You could Groove it first, then add Dan's system afterwards. But ask Dan for his recommendations, he's the Inventor after all!

The underbody panels make sense as well, that will cut aero. drag. Getting past 50 MPG is really something, when the Subie did it on a test, I was blown away! If you start to see more power under your right foot as you go about things, it's a Very good sign. Then it's called don't Use It!

Tracy G

I need to post some pics in the next couple of days but i've had to wait on a part to come in. If you groove one of these cars be aware that the intake manifold is plastic and that the vacuum line attached to a vacuum switch on the throttle body is plastic as well and very fragile(trust me on the fragile part).

Interesting part is that the idle air is on the throttle body is routed from the bottom all the way up on both sides to the butterfly axle. I'll upload some pictures if I can get away from the car tonight.

Cold vortex, groove, spark gap adjustment is all happening at once. Going to try to groove it at around 20% throttle, might have to fold the business card over like on gmc's. I need the boost at 20-22% throttle and not 15% just above idle.

Ken

That's brave, making all those changes at once...I'd do the plugs, then the groove, then re-adjust the plugs and idle for the groove, then add the cold vortex, and readjust everything again...what about PCV re-route and IAC adjustments?
It sounds as though you're in contact with Dan, so he will be able to help on the phone if things go funky...
Good Luck!! I'm really looking forward to hearing your results with this. 70, 80, 90 MPG???

I'm with heysoundude far as going one step at a time. Takes more time, temptation is to just do all at once. But time constraints make us condense our process. If the plugs are easy to get to, I'd do them first, listen to idle quality/sound.

Putting the Groove deeper in the TB bore, can be touchy, but business card method works OK. I'd hesitate trying to go much deeper in TB bore than that.

I'd really like to see your pics of this baby! Esp. the IAC arrangement.

BTW, I just went to ebay to get a look at this TB, I found this auction, pretty good price!

Well the link is too long or something, it won't copy in here. It's on ebay right now, it is 63 bucks w/ free ship. At first it looks as all plastic, then in more pics it looks metal...? anyhow now I see the layout if this is right one, the IAC air goes in at openings right under the throttle shaft, like an IAC re-route! It's DBW. Looks like as you say Ken the IAC air comes up thru a duct in the intake manifold and enters a small void in TB base, then the IAC channel splits and goes to each side of throttle shaft. Now I wonder 2 more things- is what we are calling an IAC channel/duct really an IAC, or is this something else, like EVAP/charcoal canister purge, or...? Does this TB hold the throttle plate fully closed or partly open w/ key off? I'm wondering if this is like the GM Vortec's where there is no IAC, and idle speed is regulated by where the ECM puts the throttle angle at. OR Is the plate normally fully closed, and idle RPM hot/cold whatever is done by air bypassing throttle plate via an IAC system?? Either way, Honda puts these openings in the TB bore in a good place out of the Groove's way. First one like this I've seen. No need to mess w/ these openings under throttle shaft IMHO. You could adjust How MUCH air goes to these openings w/ a bit of epoxy at the center point where the air comes in. If this Honda does control idle RPM via an IAC, and throttle is closed at all times when foot is off the gas- then find and mark the desired throttle angle in the bore and Groove there. Another clue would be if the un-cleaned TB has no dark stain under the plate, and if there's enough miles on it where the stain should be there, that says to me that the "natural idle position" of the plate is fully closed. OR if there is indeed a stain, and it's right at where the throttle is fully closed, that's confirmation that it uses an IAC to control idle speed. See why I'm saying all this?

If you've identified a throttle angle that seems ideal, could you have the TB in hand off the engine, connect the electrical plug, turn the key on--then using scantool or ultraguage readout for throttle angle position, position the throttle plate to the desired angle, then mark along plate edge in the bore w/ a sharpie pen? Then try business card, etc.between TB bore and plate opposite side from Groove to find what to use to get plate at the matching angle.

One thing Ron taught and I found out on DBW for the Chevy Vortec V-8's is to do just as you are saying re: putting the Groove a bit downstream in the TB bore from fully closed throttle plate, you need to avoid having the Groove at hot engine idle plate angle position. This is reason for the business card behind the plate when cutting Groove to get it downstream from hot idle position, else you can have excess idle speed. Ron further taught to check the TB for the dark stain in the bore that builds up and marks the normal hot idle position, this gives clear indication of where to cut the Groove, just a little further deep in the bore so to avoid the too-high idle RPM. Apologies, Ken if I'm repeating what you already know, but others may learn from seeing this. The big thing to remember is don't clean the TB bore if it's a DBW type, you want to see the black stain as a guide. Another thing to verify is how the plate moves to the hot idle position, when engine is off, the plate's rest position needs observed. W/ the Chevy Vortec's the plate rest pos. is partly open w/ engine and key off. At cold start ECM opens plate more for fast idle, and gradually closes to hot idle position as temps increase.

I've not Grooved any other TB's w/ DBW throttle control besides the Chevy 5.3 Vortec, so I'm curious to see if other makes behave as the Chevy does. and I'm now wondering if there was both a plastic and metal TB for this Honda, and if so why?

Last- A Gadgetman a few yrs. ago gave a tip for holding the Vortec throttle plate in position against the business card. Vortec TB's are spring-loaded and off position is slightly open throttle. He used modeling clay from a hobby store a big glob of it against backside of plate w/ the card between plate/bore. This frees up both hands, and good idea to hold TB in a small vice, now both hands are free to control the dremel flexshaft.

Ok an addendum to all this: I've looked at 4 pages of ebay auctions for this TB. All pics showed a metal body w/ black plastic housing over the drive motor. Most had an IAC valve integral to TB, with looks like an air supply hose to the IAC. A couple had no integral IAC. If yours has the integral IAC, could restrict air to it w/ a smaller dia. hose in the main IAC hose. Looked like the throttle plate sits just a small bit open at rest. And many auctions were under 100 bucks some under 50 if ya want a spare.

sorry for so long-winded, but all this figures into Groove-ing strategy for what the Honda TB I saw on ebay looks like.



You say this TB is plastic,, the ebay one I found is metal...??


Tracy G

Manifold is plastic Tracy, throttle body is metal.

Lets see if I can upload the pics and narrate them. I finished the install tonight and had my wife do the reconditioning.

Throttle Body with the built in IAC

Vacuum switch, watch the removal as the plastic hose fitting is very very very fragile.

Cut the Groove

These babies fit between the throttle body plate and intake manifold, they are what gives your bolts the torque they need so you aren't fastening into the plastic intake manifold. Warning, if you drop one you have to remove the belly panels to get to the part you just dropped.

You will cut through this throttle body, build up is needed but then you will need to trim it to replace the vacuum switch.

Vacuum switch placed properly.


No numbers on mpg yet but wife was thrilled with how this thing took off at around 22% throttle. Even floored we were seeing negative short trim readings, I dont' think we say a positive number tonight while test driving. This may have more to do with the merrick vortex system but so far i'm very impressed with this little car.

I'll post more later, need sleep.
Ken

My guess is with researching processes/installation procedures, the plan of attack gets clarified and condensed if not streamlined, as a bunch of what you did overlapped the rest. Wicked. We're all becoming experts on our cars and all we have to do is share with everybody else what we know.

That's a whole bunch of work you've done, and it all looks great. I can't wait until you've got some mileage numbers once the car settles in to the changes. My fingers are crossed for you to achieve 70+

nice, Ken!

Great pics, which bit did ya use? The thing you call a vacuum switch I assumed was an IAC. That's very good indication w/ the torque boost at 22% throttle, even better w/ neg. FT's!! IT will be especially encouraging if you get a MPG boost w/ this Honda, to breakthrough the stubborn Honda syndrome. How's the tailpipe smell? If you spaced the plate open w/ a card, can you share details?
I'll keep my digits crossed as well, I'd expect a significant MPG boost from this one!

Tracy G