TOPIC: Sharing the Groove out at Permies

I posted some information concerning the groove on a popular homesteading & permaculture forum known as 'Permies'
The people there are very much into living more economical, reducing pollution & making the world a better place by taking action instead just being angry at bad guys.

Many people have a negative knee-jerk reaction when hearing about another engine mod. I made an attempt to explain in my own words & experience what this technology does. Hopefully someone there takes an honest look into it and takes action.

scrolling down that page a bit, I provided pics & videos explaining the technicalities so people could take it serious.

Here's the link to the Permies post I made:
https://permies.com/t/88900/Engine-Modification-increase-power-emissions#729546

What do you think Ron, accurate info?

First - in your 2nd last post, you said you weren't interested in an expensive EFIE circuit. Go look at how they're priced on the Eagle Research website. they're not expensive anymore:


Second - like the people there have said, be careful of making claims you can't back up. Yes, grooved engines don't use as much fuel and the exhaust smells much cleaner, but I don't think anyone has any evidence/numbers/proof that the vacuum gets deeper in the manifold. sure, common sense dictates that it's higher (I prefer deeper as the term to be used, actually, because we're comparing it to standard atmospheric conditions outside the intake) when the butterfly is more closed, and higher than at similar engine output levels of non-grooved engines, but nobody's done the scientific data collection necessary to back up the assertion.

Third - For efficiency-concerned audiences, and "green" audiences alike, I would tend to avoid the use of the word power; people understand power requires fuel which results in emissions.

This is what always happens. People have become so inured they go off the deep end. They rattle off poorly researched opinions as though they were fact, not realizing they're just spouting the company line.

Don't worry, Jason! Plant the seeds. God will water them and those that are supposed to grow, WILL!

And the data you posted was indeed accurate. I'm proud!

Ron

Hi Jason. I read your and the other posts in that forum. You did a good job in there, IMHO. People in forums or discussion groups can be hostile, or maybe "territorial" in their responses. I bet that forums and discussion groups could be one of the hardest places to promote the Groove. We all know how folks will say whatever, since it's not in person. The Groove requires some patience and open-mindedness to grasp the concept. And today many have a 10 second attention span, or they just want to sound informed.

And as Greg said, we really DON"T have mainstream-style Scientific Proof of the Groove's effect's, except all the MANY 5-gas analyzer data video's Ron posted years ago....(hmmm...)

Ron, I remember when you Grooved my buddy George's wife's car. The exhaust went dryer vent clean ( I did the Muffler Sucker thing) and then it blew Zero's on the analyzer, and I watched you add it to the Zero List that was hanging there between the garage door and the Analyzer... That Groove job is what set the hook for me!

It's no surprise what happened in that forum, though some of the responses "sounded" relatively well-reasoned. Don't worry. Try to view it as analagous to putting up a roadside sign. May will see it, a few may act upon it.

you did good, IMHO!

Tracy G

GregK wrote: First - in your 2nd last post, you said you weren't interested in an expensive EFIE circuit. Go look at how they're priced on the Eagle Research website. they're not expensive anymore:

True, those are inexpensive. I actually have two of those EFIE devices installed, one for each O2 sensor (pre CAT & post CAT).
They've been installed for about 2 years. They do absolutely nothing to get me past the (-16) Long Term Fuel Trim. At this point, nothing is letting me through.
I even emailed Wiseman before I bought them and explained to him my issue and he said his EFIE's would essentially get me beyond -16 but, they did not unfortunately.
My '99' Honda Civic ECU is seemingly impossible to overcome.

***

Thanks Ron,
Glad to hear your approval!

Do you track how far you drive on how many gallons?

-16 Fuel Trim is what the readout says. how do you know for sure that your're not beyond it? I guess it all depends on your "bible" or belief system...but if your mileage is up over stock/government ratings, you're doing well. if you're consistently doing significantly better than them, you're doing awesome.

Also remember that computers are stupid things, only doing or telling us what they've been programmed to, and the result may not be as expected.

I'm working on getting my Pilot's license, and we use trim in airplanes too. There is a range to how much trim we can apply, but the result depends on certain factors: X degrees of forward trim may work at Y RPM to maintain level flight on some days, and on others, you may need Z rearward trim at that same RPM, depending on winds, atmospheric pressure (MAP sensor), air temperature (IAT/MAF), humidity (MAF)... (sound familiar?)

Don't get stuck on the trim number, get stuck on the "distance to empty" or "fuel range" a lot of cars display. That's what you want to increase. Trims help diagnose problems, but the be-all, end-all is distance travelled on a tank/range/runtime. just because a scantool is saying your trims can go +/-20 and it's only showing -16 doesn't mean you're not already trimmed out to the max and fooling the computer hardcore.

Yes, I gauge my economy with the "wet test" (I believe they call it that?)
the latest mileage traveled divided by the gallons pumped in at fill up - same gas station, same pump.

My economy is usually only a few miles/gallon over stock. I'm not impressed at all with that considering all the mods I've applied.
When I do have great gains is when I practice hypermiling.
My ECU will not let me achieve signifigant mpg gains - period.

I'm aware of what you're saying, good points. I'm always checking my results and the one thing that always comes up is an error code when -17 LTFT is hit.
The error code is almost always: P0173 - Fuel Trim Malfunction Bank 2
Then the ECU is in "dump fuel mode" or "Limp mode". MPG goes down until I reset the ECU & keep the LTFT above -16. I've noticed this for over 3 years. It's simply a fact with my ECU. No mod I've applied yet has dealt with that issue.

Good news is, all the other benefits are there: power, smoother ride, less pollution, better braking.

Cool to hear you're going for a pilot's license. Hope it works out.

It is truly sad they require a MINIMUM fuel delivery rate!

One thing you might try is further reducing the intake air flow by applying a blockage at the throttle body as the air enters. It will drop the pressure a little further as well as reducing the intake air flow.

Let me know what you think, and if it pans out for you!

Ron

JV wrote: Yes, I gauge my economy with the "wet test" (I believe they call it that?)
the latest mileage traveled divided by the gallons pumped in at fill up - same gas station, same pump.

My economy is usually only a few miles/gallon over stock. I'm not impressed at all with that considering all the mods I've applied.
When I do have great gains is when I practice hypermiling.
My ECU will not let me achieve signifigant mpg gains - period.

I'm aware of what you're saying, good points. I'm always checking my results and the one thing that always comes up is an error code when -17 LTFT is hit.
The error code is almost always: P0173 - Fuel Trim Malfunction Bank 2
Then the ECU is in "dump fuel mode" or "Limp mode". MPG goes down until I reset the ECU & keep the LTFT above -16. I've noticed this for over 3 years. It's simply a fact with my ECU. No mod I've applied yet has dealt with that issue.

Good news is, all the other benefits are there: power, smoother ride, less pollution, better braking.

Cool to hear you're going for a pilot's license. Hope it works out.

If you have some gains but suspect the computer is holding you back, you need to hack what the computer is getting from the sensors. I’d suggest you look at an EFIE - the ones from Eagle Research are $29. And THEN, WHEN that works, look into a MAP sensor mod (it’s called an “enhancer” on Eagle’s website...easy to apply to an analog sensor, but he’s also worked out the digital frequency based ones on Fords).

Hi Ron,

I actually thought about that very thing and did just that several years ago. I actually put a rag in the air intake tube but took it out after a few days since I was convinced others that was a bad idea. I think I'll try the concept again but as you said - "at the throttlebody intake side". I'll try it again long enough to see if anything happens.

Thanks.