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TOPIC: Taking a groovy car to the next level

Taking a groovy car to the next level 24 Mar 2021 18:19 #25

  • Mike Miller
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Greg looking at the research you have done, I think the PWM for your electric fans will work as described in the links. As far as it keeping up with the increase in coolant temperature, with what you have planned has many variables. How much increase heat will the exhaust warm the coolant? What will be the heat or temperature drop from the fuel? Also making sure the exhaust does not heat the coolant past its boiling point, which a 50/50 mix is normally around 255-260. I would also think after the coolant/fuel heat transfer the coolant should probably be routed directly back to the radiator for cooling. In theory it would increase the load on the alternator to some degree, but I didn't catch anything in your links that it would be to such an extent to cause adverse effect. Its diffidently an interesting concept you have and I would definitely be interested in the results if you do decide to undertake this project.
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Taking a groovy car to the next level 24 Mar 2021 20:00 #26

  • GregK
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Thank you, Mike.
I think the first step already happened - when my Alternator gave up the fight in December, I chose to upgrade to a higher output replacement along with a higher capacity battery (it was due from a free warranty replacement point of view).
Another step happened today - I verified with my spare coolant temp sensor that it's resistance does drop as it gets warmer, so that when engine coolant is above 230 degrees the PWM will be blasting both fans at 100% duty cycle. This is before any additional exhaust heat is added to the cooling system, or any fuel absorbs any of that extra heat.
So - Fans first. Just like making sure that you're going to be able to make a car slow if you're preparing to make it go ;-)
Then I think it would probably be a good idea to verify that my cooling system doesn't have a leak. May I ask a question possibly calling on your profession?
Are wire hose clamps like this better at ensuring a seal of something like my cooling system?
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Taking a groovy car to the next level 28 Mar 2021 18:07 #27

  • Mike Miller
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Greg,
I've seen that device before but don't know a lot about it. I personally wouldn't use it, except in emergency, because I would be concerned it would gouge the hose. Worm gear clamps tend to gouge a rubber hose over time also. As far as high pressure hoses go, we use a T bolt clamp. There are plenty of heavy duty hose clamps available online, that can handle a lot more pressure than your standard auto parts store worm gear clamp. When my buddy put silicone hoses on his truck, we used adjustable nut and bolt clamps. One they are much more heavy duty and two because the have a smooth metal band, it won't dig into the hose. He especially wanted this because silicone hoses are expensive. As long as you have a decent idea of size clamp you need, there easy to order. I've include pictures of two different clamps I mentioned.

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Taking a groovy car to the next level 28 Mar 2021 20:51 #28

  • GregK
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Thanks again, Mike...lucky for me, one of my local auto parts/hardware stores stocks them.
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Taking a groovy car to the next level 29 Mar 2021 01:43 #29

  • CLAUDIO CORDOVA
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Brother, you have my wheela turning and I honestly going have re-read this one a couple of times. I ask for your patience because its like you handed me a rubik's cube and to solve it in the dark lol. One thing about heating the fuel, could a modified oil warmer rigged in the fuel line be a idea to work with or try out? Keep on and hope to hear more about your results.
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Taking a groovy car to the next level 29 Mar 2021 10:39 #30

  • GregK
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The assumption, Claudio, is that existing mechanisms in the system will contribute to finding a highly efficient equilibrium alongside our Groove and whatever other mods we have applied to our cars.

one of the main byproducts of combustion is being given away right now - heat. think how much faster a modern car will enter closed loop fuel delivery if some of that heat is applied to the waterjacket. Theoretically that means less fuel burned to get to where the o2 sensors start telling the injectors to trim. also using that heat to warm the fuel before injection will probably mean that it vapourizes more easily, so hopefully that will encourage the computer to trim back pulse durations (the o2 sensors might just see a rich condition more consistently)...and this will theoretically cause the engine to run cooler...so it's not adding significant extra stress to the cooling system or causing premature ageing of an engine or or or. will it burn the oil? no idea. will antifreeze need to be changed more often or the mixture changed? maybe. one step at a time...and small steps at that, right?

BUT -

you have to be prepared for (initially, while the computer HOPEFULLY learns the "new normal") the cooling system to dissipate what could be a LOT of extra heat on the way there., and in my case my electric fans turn on/of and kick into high gear at set points - I'm thinking it would be better for that to happen sooner, and I think that the best way to do THAT is to make my fans PWM controlled - so I don't melt my engine down to a block of aluminum if recycling exhaust heat into the water jacket/cooling system PLUS combustion heat pushes things to a limit I'd rather not face. and all of this means a cooling system that is fully intact - able to withstand pressures and dissipate heat. with electric fans, that also means added strain on the alternator.

so cooling system first, then warm the fuel...if you get a mileage improvement, THEN add the exhaust heat to the water jacket. Does that make sense to you?
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Taking a groovy car to the next level 12 Apr 2021 09:44 #31

  • GregK
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I was just reviewing the Thread here of the mods I've made to my Daily driver, and the successes I've had.
Ron made an interesting point here about the heat exchange that I think supports my theory/hypothesis about using exhaust heat to keep the coolant temp up:

"As the ambient (atmospheric) temperature drops, heat loss from the engine and the exhaust increases. The ECU will force over-fueling of the engine to compensate, as the temperature of the catalytic converter is considered an omnipotent command, overriding all other fuel delivery parameters."
(I've added the bold and italics)
In other words, if the Catalytic converter is seen to be getting too hot by the computer -presumably measured by the downstream o2 sensor(s)- the computer will step in to reduce fuel delivery to cool the reaction in the converter(s). I would assume that this would cause an "update" to the fuel map in the computer; I'm increasingly certain that there will be an "equilibrium point" achieved.

..stay tuned
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Taking a groovy car to the next level 09 Nov 2021 23:24 #32

  • kman
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I have an EFIE of his on my upstream o2 sensor and it works as advertised.

Since the Groove and bubbler have not made a difference in the MPG, it was time to go the EFIE route.
The Groove gave me torque but the MPG's are what I am striving for.
Wisemans EFIE supposedly should be hooked up to the O2 wire.
Been going nuts trying to find the signal wire on the upstream O2.
Have the original O2 and mine has 5 wires and all different colors and seems like the Kia dealers only know the signal wire from jack which I dont want to mess with.
The O2 wires are thicker and easier to work with when cutting.
The wiring schematics could not be found by me either.
How did you find your signal wire on your 02 for the EFIE?

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Taking a groovy car to the next level 10 Nov 2021 00:23 #33

  • GregK
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I was fortunate to find a website ( LINK - poke around at this site for the other articles: it's quite excellent ) that gave common colours of the common sensor manufacturers. My 4wire upstream sensor (yup, just one) was easy to check and verify. But rather than cutting into the factory harness, I bought an extender cable that I put between sensor and harness that I could cut into and remove as necessary (it hasn’t been - my jurisdiction eliminated tailpipe testing a few years ago)

Have you been to the sensor manufacturer’s website for their data sheet? It’s probably specific to that vehicle, or that auto maker.
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Taking a groovy car to the next level 10 Nov 2021 10:37 #34

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kman wrote:
Wisemans EFIE supposedly should be hooked up to the O2 wire.
Been going nuts trying to find the signal wire on the upstream O2.
Have the original O2 and mine has 5 wires and all different colors and seems like the Kia dealers only know the signal wire from jack which I dont want to mess with.
The O2 wires are thicker and easier to work with when cutting.
The wiring schematics could not be found by me either.
How did you find your signal wire on your 02 for the EFIE?


Yes, the EFIE should be hooked up to the signal wire - you read the other link I posted, right? The EFIE adds a small voltage to what the computer sees from the upstream o2 sensor so that the computer THINKS it's overfuelling and trims back. You'll definitely know when you've gone too far. You'll want to see a signal going to the computer closer to 1v than to 0v...but that signal has to oscillate. the Oxygen sensor article with pics should help make better sense of how they work. (And if your machine has a MAP sensor, that could use some modification too. because you want the computer to see a ~1v signal there at idle and closer to 5v at wide open throttle...but first the oxygen sensor)

My basic research shows those thicker wires are for the Heater circuitry, so the sensor is more accurate sooner in the warm-up cycle, and you DO NOT want to be cutting those. they're battery voltage, or whatever your alternator's regulated output voltage is (so that the battery can charge). It seems that some setups actually vary the fuel pump speed to get the fuel trims where they want, but here's a link that may help you narrow your signal wire down: Look at their description of what the 5 wires are for

Maybe AutoZone can help you narrow it down
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Taking a groovy car to the next level 11 Nov 2021 19:22 #35

  • kman
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From what I found, Kia makes their own O2 sensors so finding the wire is more difficult.
George said on his site that this would be a problem finding it thru the dealer.
Three dealers and only one had an answer after an hour and it was from the harness, not the sensor.
Will try Autozone but I think they will ask what brand sensor which is OEM.
Have the EFIE hooked to ground and blower so all is needed is signal wire to cut and bypass with EFIE wires.
Thought that maybe stripping a small section of each wire and testing with an OHM meter was a way to find the signal wire.

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Taking a groovy car to the next level 11 Nov 2021 19:38 #36

  • GregK
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Kia/Hyundai making their own sensors would surprise me.
Autozone link was for you to look into wiring diagrams to suss out exactly which wire on the harness to look for
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