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TOPIC: Taking a groovy car to the next level

Taking a groovy car to the next level 19 Nov 2021 21:22 #37

  • Aaron
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Hi guys I just want to let you know that that I reached out to that Australian bloke a little more than two years ago and told him about the Groove. I guess he never pursued it. In terms of preheating the fuel, I once spoke to Ron and he was not in favor of it. However, if you are going to do it Mike Holler has a method where the evap line is rerouted and a adjustable one way check valve is dialed in so you don't throw a check engine light. He also recommends that the evap line have a solenoid that closes a valve on the evap hose when the engine shuts off. This is for safety. The engine is turned off, the soldnoid kicks in and the vapors then can exit the tank as before. (I have never tried this). In contrast, here is something that Ron did suggest and it does not involving heat.. He suggested wrapping the fuel line with a light gauge power wire that goes to your alternator. He told me that electrical magnetic field would break up the heavier hydrocarbons that are harder to vaporize and fuel economy gains would be around 25%. / So, if you combined Mike Holler's fuel preheating method with Ron's suggestion you would have something there. But, the most important thing to remember is safety first. If it' is still there, there is a long video on fuel mileage secrets by Holler where he explains the method. i will search for it when i am not busy.
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Last edit: by Aaron.

Taking a groovy car to the next level 20 Nov 2021 14:33 #38

  • GregK
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my evap purge solenoid on my intake would be fantastic to control with a pulse-width modulated signal...I just haven't figured out where to source the duty cycle trigger from. (possibly EGR..they're right next to each other on my car...and if they open at the same time, the vapours SHOULD mix with the warm/moist exhaust better...)
maybe some sort of logic gate can be constructed so that when the throttle plate is closed, the solenoid is activated to draw vapours in under low engine load conditions and adjust injector pulse durations? injector pulses probably come more from the o2 sensor, for 14.7:1 rich/lean decisions...and the MAF plays a part in that, with IAT...
^ this is precisely why old-school people used to carbs HATE modern cars for their complexity. the logic was simpler, and they didn't have to cheat anything that was making calculations other than mama nature's gas law and thermodynamics. not so much going around in circles, "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain" lol
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Taking a groovy car to the next level 23 Nov 2021 21:30 #39

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Check this out.
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Taking a groovy car to the next level 23 Nov 2021 21:37 #40

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This is Mike Holler's method for preheating the fuel. Warning: in my discussions with Ron, he did not get behind the idea of preheating the fuel. But, if you were to do it, Holler's method is very intriguing.

What Ron did experiment with was wrapping a powerline, that goes to the radiator, around a fuel line. He claimed 25% better fuel economy. However, I don't believe he performed this modification for customers. So, you are on your own on both these methods.
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Taking a groovy car to the next level 24 Nov 2021 11:20 #41

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Yup, the check valve is exactly what I was thinking with my evap line solenoid idea. (the check valve is also a bit of a holdover from the days of carburetors)
(I only have a fuel supply line from my tank - no return. and I also have an EFIE on my upstream o2 sensor for the computer to trim injector pulse width to try to hit 14.7:1 air-fuel ratio)
EDIT - now that I've seen the whole video, that check valve is a lot simpler than my electronic hack/mod idea. Further, the idea of dropping crankcase pressure - TracyG sent me a BMW air-oil cyclone separator. I put it on my breather line, with the drain going into the PCV line through a needle valve (so there's always a slight bit of manifold vacuum on the breather pressure, but the air is all still metered so as not to confuse the computer). In a way, it kinda balances out top and bottom pressures in this config, and yes, I have noticed a bit of a difference in performance. Ron might disagree about not capping the PCV system/port, but I like the way it's been going so far. Edit 2 - actually, now that I've watched the longer video as well, Ron had his own takes on some of the things Mike talked about there, too. This is good - I like testing ideas (it's why I've been here Grooving for so long, and testing away with various thoughts and methods) because I'm a firm believer there are more ways than one to accomplish things. Mess with things until they work better, friends...and try not to mess them completely up lol.

Back to the topic at hand - everybody also has an EGR valve/system - that factors into the mix in the intake as well. the dry fuel vapours Mike mentions mix with warm moist exhaust in certain circumstances and combinations...based on what factors according to the computer? <- this is what we need to reverse engineer so we can hack/exert influence if not gain outright control:

With the US President choosing to draw down strategic petroleum reserves to keep prices at the pump from spiking to keep the economy moving along (while encouraging OPEC to pump more yet shutting down pipelines from significant continental sources), there will come a time sooner than later that there will be rationing of fuel and increased interest in the Groove. (Unless miraculously, EVs have some sort of magical breakthrough in terms of range and the power distribution network steps up to big oil and says "we've got this" and takes over the filling station networks). (actually, this will hit diesel harder/faster than gasoline - farms run on diesel and there's a significant potential to get starved to death...)

sorry for the divergence there...
make ready friends - we're gonna need this knowledge sooner than later.

FRANKLY - rather than preheating fuel, we need to find ways to vapourize it better at the right time, and regulate that into the combustion chamber. I think our groove does a great job of mixing fuel and air, but we're measuring 14.7:1 at the wrong time/place for efficiency. we have the technology to do better, and keep it simple. Balancing vacuum and crankcase pressures is one of those simple ways.
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Last edit: by GregK. Reason: had more thoughts after watching the whole of both videos
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