Welcome, Guest
Username: Password:
Talk about other methods for increasing fuel efficiency.
  • Page:
  • 1

TOPIC: Experiences with improving hho

Experiences with improving hho 02 Apr 2013 14:08 #1

  • Ken Bittle
  • Offline
  • Adventurer
  • Adventurer
  • Posts: 145
  • Karma: 11
  • Thank you received: 61
The following will be just as the title describes, my experiences with hho and what I have done to improve the process based on what I have learned based on experience and information provided free from the interwebs.

As this knowledge is general in description please feel free to contact me or reply if you have questions regarding anything that I post. I have no intention of using this information for profit, only as a tool to help others. I hope that you use what you learn about this technology in the same manner.

Electrolysis is pretty simple method of splitting water, our goal here is to make it as efficient as possible. Heat is our enemy when building a reactor for an ICE (internal combustion engine), so we want to look at ways to reduce the heat involved. My experiences below will describe most of the units I have built and they are typically called 'dry cells'.
In a bipolar (one positive/negative plate with neutrals) reactor we want to split the voltage we are giving to our reactor from our battery down to a level that will create more hho vapor than heat. I have found that 5 neutrals works the best for vehicle applications and will cut the voltage between the plates down to 2.1 to 2.3 volts per gap. More voltage per gap just creates heat that is wasted in the process and you have to use a device to control the amps as heat increases the amps used. We can keep from having to do this by simply starting with the correct voltage between the plates and preparing the plates correctly.

Typically I have used the following materials for building my reactors.
-Marine board for endplates (typically 3/4")
-EPDM Rubber pond liner for gasket material.
-316L Stainless Steel Plate material at 18-20 ga.
-Stainless fasteners
-3/8" braided clear hose
-8 Ga high thread count electrical wire
-Battery isolator for a relay switch (audio stores carry quality units)
-In-Line fuse link, 40-60 amps (the idea here for me is to stop a surge)
-On-Off switch just in case you need to run the car without the unit on
-Add-a-fuse so that the unit is only 'on' when the engine is running.
-Misc. connections, Typically I make my connections from copper plumbing pipe just so that I don't lose any voltage between the battery and the reactor.

Plate design

There are lots of different thoughts on this but I have personally found that if you do a simple calculation it works nearly every time. But I will admit after adding the groove to my vehicle I need a lot less hho.
(engine size in liters/4 = liters per minute of hho) for a 3.0 liter engine you would need .75 liters per minute. Some have said you need up to 1.5 liters a minute in this situation but I have found that with a magnetic filter you don't need that much to get gains. Okay so we know that we need .75 liters per minute, well if we use a standard of 15 amps per liter a minute than we can see that we need 11.25 amps. A good rule of thumb is to have a plate sized so that you are using half an amp per square inch of surface area. So that means we need a plate size of 22.5 sq. inches. 5" x 4.5" = 22.5 sq. inches of surface area needed. Well we can't forget about our gasket area of half an inch all the way around so we simply add an inch to these calculations. Final result of plate sizing is 5.5" x 6".



Plates that I am currently running, you can see the blasted surface and weld-on around the entry and exit ports.



Dual stack reactor setup.

Plate preparation

This will generally take as long as a full installation of the system but is worth the effort I believe in the sake of efficiency.
-Media blasting the plates (40-80 grit) creates more surface area and lowers the heat produced. I typically go with a texture of a nail file.
-Weld-On 16 or 1802 around your entry and exit holes (slots on top and single water entry staggered at the bottom of the plate). This will electrically separate the plates where the electrical current will try to flow through first. We want to spread out the current over the entire surface.
-Passivate the plates. There are different theories on this, I have always used 10% citric acid to a gallon of water at room temperature for 2-3 hours. You can also run 2-3 amps to the plates and electrically passivate if you wish.
-Clean everything before you build your reactor. Rinse with distilled water, acetone, distilled water. The NaOH and KOH we use in the reactors normally makes soap when oil is present, it will make soap in your reactor if you have oily fingerprints on your plates. Trust me on this one.

Main Reservoir needs to be mounted somewhere in the vehicle so that it is higher than your reactor. US plastics sells some great multipurpose tanks that are great for this.

Secondary reservoir needs to be mounted just below your reactor, the inside of the bumper is a great place for these if you have room. Typically we are looking at a 3-4" diameter pipe as wide as possible so that the main reservoir feeds into the bottom of this reservoir and our reactor is fed by this pipe. When I added this to my reactors the water temp. dropped 15 degrees.

Bubbler filter (because we don't want to see any of this hho vapor at all), needs to be mounted after the unit and needs to be mounted vertically. When you see the vapor coming out of your tube that is actually electrolyte you are seeing, not something you want to put into your engine. Typically water is used in a filter like this but I have found that you can use pillow stuffing or peat moss to do the same thing. If you use a 2" clear pvc pipe, make it as long as possible but at least 12-15 inches of material if you can find a place for it. I make mine with 3 sections, the lower area where the vapor enters from the side and has a valve at the bottom so you can drain the moisture that will accumulate. I separate my sections with window screen stretched tight between the sections so that the material doesn't fall down into the lower section. The middle section has your packed material, as tight as you can pack it without restricting flow as we don't want too much pressure building up. The top section has more window screen to hold the material in place, a port out the side and a flash back arrestor screwed into the top. If there is some interest in this I have no problem taking my unit apart and providing pictures.

Magnetic filter


based my design off of this patent, but i used 3/4" pvc pipe and 2"x1/2"x1/2" rectangular magnets. I'll post some pictures of the build if anyone is interested in trying it out. It doesn't create more hho vapor, but re-alines the atoms so the hydrogen is spinning in the same direction. A simple test is to light the vapor coming out of some water before and after the filter, but please do not try this without thinking first. Do Not Use a glass jar for this test, i'll go as far as asking that you don't try the test at all. I used magnets with 92 lbs of force each and squeezed 6 of them into a 12" pvc pipe. (Edit) This needs to be mounted very close to your injection point just prior to the throttle body, a flash-back arrestor is a good idea here as well.


Here are the pieces I used, please note that the magnets are not aligned correctly as they need to oppose each other.



While inserting the magnets I had to keep them 8 inches away from each other on the workbench in order for them to not attract each other.



Completed filter

This was a little longer post than I anticipated, i'll grab some pictures from my laptop and post them as soon as I can tonight.

Questions and comments are all welcomed, i'm sure I left something out.


Ken

This message has attachments images.
Please log in or register to see it.

The following user(s) said Thank You: Kenneth Smith

Please Log in to join the conversation.

Last edit: by Ken Bittle. Reason: Additional Information

Experiences with improving hho 27 Apr 2013 18:32 #2

  • Ken Bittle
  • Offline
  • Adventurer
  • Adventurer
  • Posts: 145
  • Karma: 11
  • Thank you received: 61
A few more pictures of my system that I have in my truck.



Setup that you can see from the engine bay.



Drivers side reactor.



Passenger side reactor



Upper Reservoir, 4" pvc with 4" to 2" reducer at the top.



Filter unit as described in above post, made as long as possible in location right next to radiator.



Flashback arrestor, 3/4" pvc cap, 1" of 3/4" pvc pipe with metal spring on top of rubber cap in bottom of 1/2-3/4" reducer. Holes drilled into side so that when a flashback occurs the vapor escapes through the sides.



Each reactor is isolated from the battery separately with its own 60 amp fuse.



Injection point right next to the throttle body.

This message has attachments images.
Please log in or register to see it.

The following user(s) said Thank You: Kenneth Smith, Lawrence Brightman

Please Log in to join the conversation.

Experiences with improving hho 27 Apr 2013 19:05 #3

  • Ken Bittle
  • Offline
  • Adventurer
  • Adventurer
  • Posts: 145
  • Karma: 11
  • Thank you received: 61
I've tried different methods of filtering the hho through water and even in Marvel Mystery Oil, but ultimately we want to remove the moisture as well as the electrolyte. For the water filters I found that aquarium stones work well and attached perfectly to the end of my 3/8" I.D. hose. Marvel Mystery oil worked well, but with the airstone 2" of liquid would fill a 14" filter with smaller bubbles after the unit was started up.

The latest filter I am using also removes the moisture from the vapor, typically I have to remove the moisture through a plug at the bottom of the unit once every 3000 miles.

If you have any questions feel free to ask.

Ken



No filter, the electrolyte sticks to the outside of the bubble so the more bubbles you create the better filtering occurs.



Airstone attached.



First test of new filter.



After 5 hours of bench testing, you can really see how the moisture is being removed from the hose coming from the reservoir to the hose coming out of the filter.

This message has attachments images.
Please log in or register to see it.

The following user(s) said Thank You: Tracy Gallaway, Kenneth Smith

Please Log in to join the conversation.

Experiences with improving hho 28 Apr 2013 23:32 #4

  • Tracy Gallaway
  • Offline
  • Founder
  • Founder
  • Posts: 1881
  • Karma: 178
  • Thank you received: 564
Heckuava HHO writeup, Ken, Thank you! :woohoo:

You put tons of thought and planning into that baby. Is it tough to force those magnets into a tube opposing each other like that?

Never tried building anything like that, other than those silly Water4Gas jars when that started 6 yrs ago or so. Glass jars are stupido! (installed in a car that is)

Magnetic atomic spin alignment of H2 is that Ortho H2?

I've strayed away from HHO due to effect O2 has on O2 sensors, my guess is older cars an EFIE might work. Newer cars ECU is a lot smarter and sensitive.

But Merrick's gas sounds interesting, have not tried it yet.

Thanks again, Ken I will ask you if I have any Q 'bout HHO stuff!

Tracy G
Tracy Gallaway
Founder and Constant Aide to Gadgetman
Gadgetman Reno, NV

Please Log in to join the conversation.

Experiences with improving hho 29 Apr 2013 16:45 #5

  • Ken Bittle
  • Offline
  • Adventurer
  • Adventurer
  • Posts: 145
  • Karma: 11
  • Thank you received: 61
Tracy those magnets are a little tough going together but after the first time one of them shoots across the garage and nearly misses the car you tend to be a little more careful about placing them. Its not too hard though, just takes a little effort and some patience.

I've noticed that with the magnetic filter and with a reactor that has permanent magnets in it you don't need much hho at all to reap the benefits. I'm still in the testing phases of this though, i'm having to recalculate all of this as the groove is giving me the same results as hho alone did.


Ken
The following user(s) said Thank You: Kenneth Smith

Please Log in to join the conversation.

Experiences with improving hho 29 Apr 2013 23:12 #6

  • Tracy Gallaway
  • Offline
  • Founder
  • Founder
  • Posts: 1881
  • Karma: 178
  • Thank you received: 564
Interesting about magnetic influence on HHO, Ken. I intuitively wondered about that combined w/ HHO, but didn't know how to use magnetics w/ it.

Doesn't that relate to converting Para-Hydrogen to Ortho, or is it other way around?

Are you using your mongo HHO rig in usual way w/ the Groove?

Tracy G
Tracy Gallaway
Founder and Constant Aide to Gadgetman
Gadgetman Reno, NV

Please Log in to join the conversation.

Experiences with improving hho 30 Apr 2013 13:03 #7

  • Ken Bittle
  • Offline
  • Adventurer
  • Adventurer
  • Posts: 145
  • Karma: 11
  • Thank you received: 61

TracyG wrote: Interesting about magnetic influence on HHO, Ken. I intuitively wondered about that combined w/ HHO, but didn't know how to use magnetics w/ it.

Doesn't that relate to converting Para-Hydrogen to Ortho, or is it other way around?

Are you using your mongo HHO rig in usual way w/ the Groove?

Tracy G


Yes this relates to the Para-Ortho conversion with the Ortho wanting to change back to Para fairly quickly, so I've noticed that you have to place the filter as close to the insertion point as possible.

Currently I have my dual unit turned off in the truck, I want to run at least a half a tank in my daily driving with just the groove to see how the truck responds. Might take a few days seeing that I only drive 5 miles one way to work, with a maximum of 20 miles a day.

I have noticed that with the groove in my car I don't need near the hho that i was using and its working great without electronic controls. Gone from 30-35 amps to 10-12 amps with the same results as before the groove. More testing is needed, smaller units would be a great help for anyone wanting to add a little hydrogen to the mix.

Ken

Please Log in to join the conversation.

Experiences with improving hho 22 Jul 2014 06:56 #8

  • Isaiah
  • Visitor
  • Visitor
Hello Ken,

I've looked on youtube and all over the internet for a working model of an HHo system. ll I've seen so far is diagrams and projects not completed. Glad to see one that is actually working.

I have a 1995 GMC Jimmy SUV with 177,000 that gets 15 mpg if i'm lucky. I'd like to find more info and how I can get one on my Jimmy as this is my only vehicle and am awaiting SSD. I joined this forum to get grooved and I plan on doing that as well.

thanks

Please Log in to join the conversation.

Experiences with improving hho 22 Jul 2014 09:14 #9

  • Ken Bittle
  • Offline
  • Adventurer
  • Adventurer
  • Posts: 145
  • Karma: 11
  • Thank you received: 61
Isaiah,

If your 95 jimmy is a tbi 4.3 liter v6, I would look at overall engine performance before grooving or adding hydrogen. Those tbi heads do not breathe all that well and I have found that the factory exhaust is just as restrictive. The factory catalytic converter/muffler and y-pipe connection can be a drag on the entire system. I have a 93 Silverado with the 5.7 liter engine, until recently I had been running with a somewhat clogged catalytic converter. After changing my converter/muffler system I am able to consistently keep the truck under 2k rpms while driving in the city and has helped me gain 5 mpg in city driving.

tbichips.com is a great resource for tips on these tbi engines.

The groove definitely will aid you in your pursuit of better mpg, though driving with a vacuum gauge and helping the engine to breath will help as much as anything.

If you are looking into Hydrogen, try hho4free.com this website has a lot of information and even some information on where to buy from and where not to.


Ken

Please Log in to join the conversation.

Experiences with improving hho 22 Jul 2014 09:52 #10

  • Isaiah
  • Visitor
  • Visitor
Thank you! I have the catalytic converters still on and no restrictor on the throttle bottle and a nice Full Boar Exhaust that I got shipped to my house for free for $32.95. It sounds great. What I don't have is the mpg I'll take your advice and visit both sites. I don't have much to do all day anyway.

Please Log in to join the conversation.

  • Page:
  • 1
Powered by Kunena Forum