TOPIC: Plasma Ignition on Waste Spark Ignition?

Ladies & Gents, TracyG, et all, would you please, give me your advice or point me in the right direction as to the following: (a bit of background info first:)

I have read and re-read "ignition secrets" and I have installed the Gadgetman grooved throttle body on my 3.5L V6 FI Mitsubishi Montero Endeavor, along with a MAPster between ECU and MAP. I am working on solving an O2 sensor as I am writing this and will put a resistor on the post CAT sensor, then tweak the MAPster, again.

My next step is to install a plasma ignition IAW Aaron's "ignition secrets." I have ordered a set of Granatelli zero-resistor spark plug wires (might be a couple of months before I get them) and 6 custom-made double tungsten plugs (might be a while, too).

I found out the Mitsubishi has a distributor less ignition system or "waste spark system" using three coils, each firing simultaneously in cylinder pairs, one in compression while the other one is in exhaust phase. My understanding with such is that one plug arcs positive to ground and the other one arcs ground to positive, causing opposite pitting of the electrodes unless minimized through use of denser precious alloys but most of all, it seems to prevent plasma from working on half the cylinders as the diodes blow on those cylinders receiving reversed polarity. (Please, correct me if this is wrong as I am not a mechanic and this is all new to me!)

Hence my questions:
1 is there a way around it? What is it?

2 can this system be converted to "coil on plug" system? If so, how?

3 I see has an MSD DIS-4 Plus Ignition (PN 62152) unit that seems approved for 6 cylinder distributor less systems, BUT is specifically says it will not work with straight core plugs and zero resistor wires due to EMI. Of course Granatelli claims the doughnut on their wire addresses EFI and EMI both. What do you all think/know?

4 does this MSD change anything to the opposite polarities of the paired cylinder plugs?

5 Assuming I get the plasma going, either with the current distributor less setup or with a coil on plug or (fill-in with your suggestion), will the MAPster I am using in series between the ECU(PCM) and MAP be sufficient to tweak the fuel flow for the new hopefully more complete burn resulting from the plasma ignition or will I need a quad-band EFIE, further complicating things?

Thank you all in advance for your time and input/suggestions.

Eric Du Pont

Please, forgive my sometime basic and naive questions as I am not a mechanic but I am willing to learn ...
PS: If one coil sends HV+ to one cylinder plug and HV- to the paired cylinder plug, is it possible to put a string of 25 diodes on each wire and have them in one direction on the HV+ and opposite on the HV- or not? say 1-4, 2-5, 3-6.
Is it correct to say 12V battery is connected to MSD and MSD connected to the three coils. If coil 1 does 1 and 4, coil 2 does 2 and 5, coil 3 does 3-6. Could we say have 1, 2 and 3 setup for + diodes and 4,5 and 6 setup for - diodes?
In his book Aaron Murakami talks about some MSD boxes not connecting the caps directly to the coil and using a "chopper" system instead, which defeats plasma. What might he be talking about and how do I find out whether the MSD-Dis 4 box is such?

Hi Eric, hey for a non-mechanic you're doing quite well!

First I believe that reversing polarity on diodes according to each cylinders firing polarity should work. I used diode blocks from ebay, 2A30KV ones, not diode strings. They look like long skinny rectangular blocks w/ female M5 screw sockets on each end. As to the charachteristics of that MSD box, call MSD and ask em.

Aaron Murakami started a support thread on Energeticforum for this, that's a good place to post re: Plasma Jet Ignition. Where did ya get the Tungsten plugs, I'mm gonna check my Torquemasters and see how the are doing. Dan at ExtremeSpark has said that w/ Plasma to expect 25% of normal service life w/ Torquemasters.



I put more pics of how I did the Subaru there. I have had some weird issues on the Subie from the Plasma effect. It DOES work, but I think the EMI/RFI is high. I don't know if there is a way to do this w/o big noise from the discarge itself at the plug.

All else of how/what the Plasma is going to do on your car, well it's Experimental...
It's a MEAN spark, w/ that MSD you are asking about, would be stronger than mine if it works!
Yeah, MSD doesn't reccomend non-resistor plugs or wires due to RFI. And Granatelli says to use a resistance coil wire w/ MPG plus wires, but ya have no dist, so no issue there for you I think.

Tracy G

Hi Tracy!

Thank you for the reply. I will definitely check out those 2A30KV diodes.

With regard to the MSD box, I called MSD after having downloaded the installation manual and read it, but I could not convey my question to the tech very well as I did not understand the whole concept myself. He could tell me a lot about what I had already read in the download but not really as to what is IN the box and how it interacts with my three waste spark coils.

With that in mind, I posted the same (slightly modified) questions on the Forums - Energy Science Forum . I have been a member learning a lot in the background (especially JB's SSG and Gray tubes) but I had somehow missed Aaron's new thread on plasma ignition. Thank you!

I am not sure I should post the phone number of the gentleman who's making those plugs on this forum without his prior permission but feel free to PM me and I will put you in touch with him. I will ask and if he OK's it, then I will gladly put the information in here as long as it does not violate any admin rules on the site.

Thanks, again for chiming in!

Cheers,
Eric

Eric check your Email box.

The other exotic stuff at Energeticforum, Gray tubes, Bedini, etc. is WAAY ove my head. Had to concentrate hard to do Plasma Ignition I reduced it down to nuts and bolts to be able to do it. I trusted in Aaron's theory, by gosh he's right. It's all in how you put the pieces together.

Tracy G

TracyG wrote: I have had some weird issues on the Subie from the Plasma effect. It DOES work, but I think the EMI/RFI is high. I don't know if there is a way to do this w/o big noise from the discarge itself at the plug.

All else of how/what the Plasma is going to do on your car, well it's Experimental...
It's a MEAN spark, w/ that MSD you are asking about, would be stronger than mine if it works!
Yeah, MSD doesn't reccomend non-resistor plugs or wires due to RFI. And Granatelli says to use a resistance coil wire w/ MPG plus wires, but ya have no dist, so no issue there for you I think.

Tracy G

Have you tried a Ferrite bead (inductance choke) on each plug wire as close to the plug as possible?
The Proper Split Beads to Suppress RFI
antenneX Home Page
You'd basically have to find units big enough to contain 2-3 diameters of the wires...you DO make your own wires, right?
(Ugh, the Granatelli site's YouTube video shows the incorrect application of this...Stainless steel core wire? Lemme ask me pop...he will know where to find this stuff)
The best option would be to find a rare-earth metal ring so you could wrap your own inductor...but mounting it at or near the block for each plug...

Now, this might not work if the RF discharges energize the entire block...

usually I do make my own plug wires. w/ the pre-made Granatelli MPG+ wires, I had to mod them at the plug end. To add the thin gauge 30KV wire from each diode block, I got 4 MSD plug wire spark plug boot/terminal kits from Summit Racing. I removed the Granatelli boot/terminals, stripped each plug wire back about 1/2" then crimped on the MSD terminal along w/the stripped conductor of the 30KV diode wire over the folded back stainless plug wire conductor. The MSD boots are straight and went over the new terminals w/ silicone grease. The thin green 30KV diode wire comes out the top end of each boot, for a decent combination. The Granatelli's come w/ a ferrite ring installed at the dist. end. I measured Ohms on these wires w/ a digital multimeter-zero Ohms, necessary as per Aaron Murakami's instructions.
The trouble I had initially w/ the whole setup turned out not to be RF noise but other stuff. I added another MSD part, forget it's name, basically a signal booster for the primary side of the ignition. I replaced the dist.internal OEM electronic amplifier w/ a GM HEI one mounted offboard of the dist. I had two of those die from heat, cured that by mounting it to a computer fan/heat sink on the firewall. That was a neat trick as the computer fan is 12v, so powering it was easy. I have a cool air tube that blows over the MSD multi-spark box as well. I've not sussed out all details needed to do COP Plasma spark ignition, probably someone has by now.

Distributorless ignition coil-block type ignitions should be pretty easy, Aaron Murakami's method involves the output from HV diode's in combo. w/multi-spark capacitive discharge ignition. Where the low voltage/hi current from the diode for each plug wire combines w/ hi voltage/low current from the MSD, AT the plug end of each plug wire. Point being you need to have the plug wires to provide an easy intersection of the two. The Murakami method allows you to DIY this ignition at relative lower cost than a pre-built kit, he recommends the lowest-cost MSD box for example. My ignition is old-style analog magnetic trigger primary side type. Coil block types may use digital primary triggering, w/ attendant component matching issues. I can help research if needed.

Later I replaced the funky factory computer-feedback carb w/ the Weber 32/36 DGEV. The factory computer is still there, but runs nearly nothing now, was mainly for the feedback Hitachi. Add in the Gadgetman Groove to the Weber, and a few other mods-and this has to be the only Subaru like it around.

While the factory ferrite rings on the MPG+ wires may not be ideal for RFI/noise suppression, Ive seen no RFI issues I'm aware of, and no other drivers have complained. I considered using copper mesh tubing ala Faraday-cage shielding over the plug wires etc.,but have not done so. I'm no electronics guy- I had to nuts and bolts this whole thing. As Plasma ignitions go- this is just a little tactical one not a big megaton Strategic monster. Still-I've seen/heard the resulting spark, and gotten bit by it twice-it's still far and away the baddest ignition spark I've ever seen.

BTW, Greg, the block you mention at end of your last-are you thinking of those plug wire blocks like in the Blue Phoenix Plasma kits? I don't have those.

and thank you for your very insightful input about this!!

Tracy G

Thanks for posting the info about proper RFI chokes, that could come in handy one day!

Just doing some forward thinking here...
The Granatelli ferrite ring would be ineffective. A proper choke/bead might solve the RFI problem entirely.

30 kV at each plug? yeah, that's pretty serious energy...ouch! Probably better to Faraday the computer in a high EMI/RFI situation rather than the cables...

...and NO to the Blue phoenix boxes. I was thinking the clamshell ferrite chokes as close to the plugs as possible. Sorry I missed that earlier.

At the thickness of these Granatelli wires, you'd need a clamp that could hold ~30mm of cable diameter in it...an inch and a bit if you're to loop the cables through 3 times...that and you'd need the cables 6-8" longer than stock to allow for the loops.

yeah, the MSD Primary/blaster coil. I considered one of those for my last Ranger, a 93 with an old-school distributor...wish the Groove existed back then for that truck...I shouldn't wax nostalgic about it: That A4LD transmission was TROUBLE. And if I remember correctly, the TB was integral with the Intake manifold, so I'd need the reverse bit to groove...maybe it's good it's gone.

Yes I still have everything to learn re: RFI and electronics in general. I only found Granatelli wires avail. as pre-made. Far as voltage at the plugs, I don't really know. The white flash of the Plasma discharge is reportedly ultra-fast, as in millionths of a second, Aaron Murakami's material explains that in a simple graph form. It's evidently a phenomena where high current combines w/ high voltage, in accelerated form. It's impressive. MY car doesn't seem to have issues w/ RFI, but it may be a unique situation as well.

Tracy G

I'm going to have to pick up Aaron's Plasma Ignition book...

Ignition Secrets is a digital download online still $37.00 far as I know. IMHO Aaron Murakami is wayy out on the tip of the pointy end of the cutting edge!

Tracy G

I'd like to update this thread with a link that came to me from a friend in Australia. It's motorbike-focused for ignition, but the section on waste-spark is pretty comprehensive if you realize that each pair of secondaries in a coil pack is connected to its own primary.

Ignition Types and Coil Wiring

Another thing I'd like to re-post is a youTube video. The electronics engineer who made it understands back current (that Aaron blocks with diodes to direct it at the spark gap), and he's come up with a ridiculously simple and inexpensive way to direct that energy at your spark gaps for stronger better spark, and ultimately, more complete combustion. I'm going to refer to it as a plasma event enhancer, because every ignition event causes electrical plasma energy (technically):



now that the weather is warming up (and I'm busy planning and building another series of mods for my daily driver), I figure this will be a good diversion and experiment on a Saturday afternoon when I hit a roadblock in the progress of that. If $20 in materials and a couple of hours putting it together gets me just a hair better mileage consistently, I'm a happy camper
(I'll be happy to answer questions about the video - it took me a while to realize that his Interrupter/Igniter unit is just the timing mechanism to demonstrate ignition on his workbench, a simulated ECU or hall effect trigger or rotor...).
I've never been brave enough to add capacitors either across the primary or between the terminal of a sparkplug and its shell...but this - well, I like simple. If there's a pulse of similar energy travelling back along the wire as the actual ignition pulse that makes the spark at the gap, but of opposite polarity to it that gets directed to ground at the moment of ignition, theoretically you might be doubling the voltage, and that would make a bigger spark, even with plugs that aren't resistorless