TOPIC: Carmakers lying about emissions

Hi Medtactics. Now there is a solid piece of useful info. Even the gubmint has probably let that one out. It's good if it works, is what I say. It's a little un-intuitive so that makes it all the more valuable! I hardly ever turn on the A/C in the Subaru, usually crack the windows/open the vent. The A/C really loads the engine in the Subie, but for newer more efficient cars. I can see it working.

Thanks for the tip!

Tracy G

It does depend on year of vehicle (anything 90 and up is pretty efficient), and the overall Cd, the lower the value the more extreme the effects of disrupting the aerodynamics.

If anyone needs aerodynamics advice, I can advise improvements and the such, being slightly studied in the field with self test and homebrew mods coupled with over 20 research projects, totalling over 300 pages of technical data and research papers I have studied.

I'd LOVE a discussion on the effect of vortex generators and their effect on the Cd/fuel efficiency of larger vehicles like vans, pickups, SUV/XUVs...

Vortex generators are basically miniature versions of the spoilers, such as what you would find on a car, except the dynamic of each interact with the airflow is different, but use the same principles while accomplishing the same thing, directly or indirectly so to speak.

Spoiler work directly, by diverting the air flow (it's mass) physically to create down force, but keep in mind there are technically two styles, one direct, and one passive. Now the direct style is mostly used in race conditions. Hence that the are a very inefficient, but effective at slower speeds. Generally these do make a vortex, but have little to a lot of effect depending on design.

The passive style which sits close to or on the deck is more or less an attempt to look cool or actually work. So far of the passive styles that actually work have protruding edges that extend to the side of the vehicle slip-stream and generate a vortex and does help separation, but not effectively, as it only effects separation from the side of the vehicle.

Now vortex generators are basically scaled down passive spoilers as said before. There entire job is to induce a small amount of drag by not exactly directing airflow, but guiding it to form a vortex to achieve clean separation.

yup, gotcha (I'm pursuing my pilot's license, and posted that comment before my lesson this morning)

What I'm specifically interested in is whether a vehicle would see any appreciable gains in fuel economy by placing them at the break points in airflow, especially for larger, box-type vehicles like pickups, vans, SUVs that create a large low pressure area behind them that pulls against the force of the engine, reducing fuel economy.
Tracy has posted links to a company called AirTabs, and I'm looking for a youtube video of a similar product that clearly demonstrates their effect over a wing of a small aircraft to permit them to fly at lower throttle settings, or further/longer for the same amount of fuel. Clearly this is chasing after eliminating parasitic drains on any vehicle - in your case, from (I believe) a racing perspective, to win; mine is from an environmental/efficiency perspective.

For planes it does work, but only because it increases flow over control surfaces, lowering total stall speed were you lose complete control. But you increase drag and lower efficiency. For cars it does he same thing, but i believe ground effect has a part to play in this. There is very little research on vortex generators, just the general consensus that they need to be placed 100mm before point of seperation by every 100mm wide. But that is the universal placement, to be more precise you would need wind tunnel time. That is the basics of what has been studied, unless you happen to to own a EVO VIII.

Form a vortex to achieve clean separation, by achieving that swirling air avoids the low pressure air behind the vehicle, the increase in efficiency is not much, but it does lower the Cd and improve stability and apply downforce. I believe it does this by trying to equalizing pressure by literly sucking the air from under the car due to the separation effect from the top side cutting it's ability to feed, also the reason why planes can't use these devices to increase efficiency.

To be honest areopackages are much more effective at increasing efficiency, but can be further increased with vortex generators.

Are you flying prop planes?

I'll just throw in that after I applied the Airtabs to my 85 Subaru wagon, I saw an increase from 50 to 52 MPG on an Orange test, a controlled 50 mile hiway drive.

Airtabs, developed and marketed for Semi trucks and trailers, were about the only off the shelf thing I could find. To add to the Subaru in the effort to cut drag.

Anything beyond that seemed to involve custom bodywork, airdams and the like. There is no real aftermarket support for my Subie in the way of anything. It's the boring mid 80's boxy station wagon, before Subaru's got "cool".

I do get questions from drivers now and then asking what they are.

I did find one other thing re: drag reduction, etc. a really weird thing called Rem Implosion Wing. A very fringe thing, it was on the net in the early-mid 2000's. Thing looked like a prop from Star Trek, and was a DIY type project. No real solid evidence that it worked, beyond the original inventor's claims.

Tracy G

yup, General aviation, propellor powered, bug-smashing, unpressurized legacy aircraft. I call them Tercels with wings, except there's a racecar engine under the cowling...carbureted, 70 year old, polluting, wasteful engine technology, but theyre tuned like a race cars. With Luck I'll have my Private Pilot license by the end of June...possibly sooner.

That youtube video I mentioned earlier? I did one better, I found their website with links to the videos, and this page (and the link) are pretty awesome:
Theory Vortex Generators
I found the "So what's the downside..." section particularly enlightening

I'm not sure there are aero packages for vans, but for some pickups I'm sure there are, and probably even SUV/XUVs too...but I kinda doubt I'll find one for my 10 yr old Rendezvous...

@TracyG

I Ment as far as optimal positioning, it was only theoretically tested with a Lancer Evo.

As for the RAM Implosion device... well here, "It is another object of the present invention to provide a system for converting zero point electromagnetic radiation energy to electrical energy." And somehow Styrofoam is able to make zero-point energy? Even then half the drawings for the patent make no sense with a lot of circular scribbling, only $500 and it's yours. There was a lot of sloppy test and are labs offered to test it, but even then the mounting is all wrong being a foot or more higher then the roof-line, but then again zero-point energy quantum mechanic styrofoam (sorry for wall of text).

"Abstract --- System for converting high frequency quantum electrodynamic radiation energy and at least one atom through cavity vacuum fluctuations and converting same into a superconductive electrical implosion propulsion energy from zero point energy at a frequency that is amenable to conversion to electrical and implosive propulsion and superconductive energy extracted within an environment having a desired voltage and a reversed waveform such that the emitted energy returns into the system to be recycled. In an externally winged craft comprising a selectively shaped vacuum cohesive fuselage and means for providing lift and propulsion for an aircraft generating an enormous electrostatic vortex lifting force when energized in conjunction with the quantum electrodynamic vortex implosion propulsion system and power plant maximizing fuel efficiencies including the extraction of usable energy from the vacuum of space. Actually riding on or in the shock waves verses the brute force disruption of the environment's equilibrium, as is the case with conventional modes of transportation or aircraft design.

BACKGROUND OF THE INVENTION

[0001] The vacuum of space contains enormous residual background energy with densities estimated to be on the order of nuclear energy densities. Zero point energy was predicted by quantum theory and verified via experimentation and is known to play a role in large-scale phenomena of interest, including, aerodynamic and/or fluid mechanics, renewable superconductive energy, holographic optical communication technologies. Linear spectral filtering which offers unique potential for future high-bandwidth communication systems. Inhibition of spontaneous emission, the generation of short-range attractive forces (e.g., the Casimir force.) Topics of interest range from space-flight applications to fundamental issues of renewable energy sources to cavity Quantum Electrodynamics (QED) laboratory attempts extracting useful energy from vacuum fluctuations thereby verifying environmental energy may indeed be extracted for practical use." So Now it will get you a 20% increase in mileage in space.

You can view the collected data here at Robert A. Patterson: US Patent Application 20050109879 -- Method & Apparatus for Quantum Vortex Implosion Propulsion & Species (Ram Wing)


@heysoundude

I was more so talking about fleet (semis and the jaze) areopackages.

Also this will benefit your Plane Carl HALL -- Propeller Cowling -- Pop. Science, April 1933 -- USP #1961214

Other then that it's waiting for flex-wing and/or plasma wing tech to come to market.

You got a picture of said plane? Also there's a few motor tricks.

I have no doubt that prop cowling would create efficiencies...the trick will be to convince the flying club that I rent from to retrofit their fleet! I don't own a plane (my close friends add YET to that statement, and they're probably right), so I'm intersted in learning about those engine tweaks. Please share! maybe Tracy with the similar engine in his car will stand to benefit from the info as well.

...and that big VG wing thing...wow! I'm thinking much more discreet and subtle, like the stolspeed VGs, where the linked article says they just have to stay within the boundary layer to be effective...

Ask them why a jet engine is able to produce thrust, it's due to the housing not allowing air to depreassurize and escape side ways. Even better would be getting a RC Plane and let them compare with and with out the cowling.

As for engine tweaks it depends on what it is where messing with. But for the plane, leaning leaning it out and increase prop pitch by a titch, not exactly a tweak, but you know most of the ignition stuff that's been posted around here.

The super cool thing about flying these planes is the ability to lean fuel delivery with the mixture control, vary the throttle plate angle, and use Carb heat like EGR...
IF I should ever own one of these vehicles, I look forward to the ignition tweaks...I'd get an expert like Ron or Tracy up to groove the Carb...