Talk about other methods for increasing fuel efficiency.

TOPIC: EGR Delete in the public

EGR Delete in the public 31 Jan 2019 14:39 #1

  • Ron Hatton
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With the arising issue regarding the PCV versus the condensation build-up potentially forcing us to increase the flow through the crankcase, it is now time for us to turn our attentions to eliminating the hidden elephant in the room: the EGR system.

I had a client contact me this week and mentioned it to me, and my ears pricked up. I did a cursory search on the web for what is being called "EGR Delete" and found immediately available kits to be applied to Diesel applications, and a few other sites discussing it for gasoline engines as well. This is extremely interesting to me, and SHOULD be for you as well!

So, this thread is where I want you all to focus your findings and your suggestions on this topic that is becoming mainstream. I have NEVER believed in reinventing the wheel. Regarding the EGR modification, there are hundreds of individuals that are already working on this project on a variety of engines.

Your mission (should you choose to accept it) is to seek out what has been tried and report back here on those efforts. We want to not only hear about what they did that WORKED (as important as that is) we need to know what they did that FAILED, so we don't duplicate their mistakes. Learn to base your development projects on what you can find about your chosen project.

While The Groove is truly a revolutionary modification and had to be developed from inspiration to its current state of tens of thousands of engines having received it, the other issues diminishing the available power from gasoline have been recognized by others as a negative engineering fact. So, the OTHER gadget men out there are already working on them, and are posting their discoveries online.

Learn to learn from what has already been done. This will multiply the speed with which your development advances, and move the entire Gadgetman Clan into a whole new world of ability to help EVERYONE get more out of their fuel!

Get to it, boys and girls!

We're waiting on YOU!!!

Ron
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EGR Delete in the public 31 Jan 2019 15:45 #2

  • GregK
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While some of the content (links, pics, diagrams) may be missing, if you dig into the archives, I did some research on this a while back before I got my bits, while Ron was incommunicado. Tracy and I (and some venerable alumni of the forum) tossed it around for a bit:
this


when the EGR is commanded to open by the ECU, vacuum in the manifold drops as if you were stepping on the throttle. (The EGR system draws moisture and unburned fuel-rich exhaust from the manifold, usually prior to the o2 sensor, into the intake manifold), For our purposes, that counters what we're trying to accomplish - the Groove's waveform. My conclusion is that it would be best to re-introduce exhaust gasses to the intake air stream prior to the throttle body rather than into the manifold itself. What I haven't managed to determine is how to let the ECU know that the "EGR open" command was successful so that a CEL doesn't get triggered. - there may be an IF/THEN condition in the OBD2 programming that shows a drop in manifold pressure by the MAP sensor...so we'd need to be able to take control of what the ECU sees from that...and/or make sure it doesn't send the "open sesame" ever again.

Now...how about fuel vaporization? Me, I'd rely on the EVAP system purge to get it into the manifold by heating the return line to the tank (where so equipped) rather than the supply line to the fuel rail...but that's just me. Maybe it, too, would have to be re-routed to prior to the TB..and If I'm correct, the injectors would only be used at engine start and until closed loop is achieved, or under high demand. further, we'd have to get into fuel pump logic on the computer so that they wouldn't be burning out...
OR - what about putting an air pump on the tank to bubble fuel up into the manifold if the fuel temp isn't high enough for it to vapourize? A venturi valve on that line to aerate things straight into the manifold would be the samrt way to use manifold vacuum rather than the way it is now...
Plenty of options/possibilities.

100MPG and higher is completely feasible. we just have to be brave enough to take it into our own hands individually AND collectively.
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Last edit: by GregK.

EGR Delete in the public 31 Jan 2019 18:58 #3

  • neil
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Unfortunately about 4 years ago I swapped from spark ignition motoring to diesel due to circumstances locally, so I was pleased to see the diesel getting a mention. I just thought I would clarify what I learnt about diesel compared to petrol.
Everybody knows/has heard that running a petrol lean causes high temperatures and possibly burn a hole through a piston, this is fine until you ask someone if they would remove, or reduce fuel in a campfire, or remove wood from a campfire when they become cold, in an attempt to warm up. They look at you if you are crazy. Obviously more fuel equals more heat. But this is the crazy thing about petrol - it actually does burn high temperatures when burnt with reduced fuel air ratio. It is a nonsense, but true.
Diesel however is not like this, damage to diesel pistons only occurs from over-fueling.
Now the job of the EGR valve is to stop the peak burn temperature from going over a predicted temperature, I think it is about 1800 degrees. Such a sad thing to wish for when all our past innovations were designed to get higher peak temperature and better burn, economy etc.
The reason they want to stay under 1800 is because of NOX. When the intake air is drawn into the cylinder 80% of the charge is Nitrogen (atmosphere) which is inert and does not burn. The catch here is that nitrogen can become burnt though if a high enough temperature is present. Yes, that temperature is about 1800 degrees and burnt (or oxidized) nitrogen is NOX.
So obviously if peak temperatures occur at different conditions then then EGR gas would need to be injected under different conditions. Petrol injects the egr under light acceleration when the vehicle id likely to be running lean. This is easy to see on carbs/throttle bodies where the port is marked EGR, the drilling is very close to the throttle butterfly, a bit off idle position and clearly gets no vacuum when throttle is fully open, and fuel mixtures are richer then for acceleration. The benefit is people cannot notice loss of power because the 'negative" egr function because it does not occur when the car accelerates.
Diesel does the opposite, it must inject the egr mix when the temperatures are high. during acceleration, if you disable the EGR on a diesel the driver will most probably be impressed. I do not know how to prove when the diesel EGR works because it is all programming done inside a black box. I dont think there are any examples of "MANUALLY CONTROLLED" EGR valves on diesel; because Common Rail or computerisation models were the first to use EGR - to compare to a petrol or "MANUALLY CONTROLLED" petrol EGR actuator.
NOX is a real problem, I dont say that because I know of anything that it causes, but because the powers that be have decided that NOX is a problem. Such a funny thing that the one thing caused by high temperature burns is considered nasty. Something that I cant confirm but have heard that by keeping the charge above 1800 for a time will cause the nox to change back into just nitrogen....
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EGR Delete in the public 31 Jan 2019 22:39 #4

  • kman
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I tried an EGR delete by blocking the EGR passage into the block with a heat resistant solid gasket.
Saw no difference and I dont know if it gave me a code but I eventually took it off.
Cant say if it works or not since my vehicle was resistant to any success as some of us know.

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EGR Delete in the public 31 Jan 2019 22:50 #5

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I’d like to chime in here with Neil on the NOX issue. Having to smog test a CNG vehicle here in the People’s Republic of Kalifornia i learned a bit about NOX. NOX is supposedly not “smog” in and of itself but rather a precursor to smog. (whatever that means) I can’t confirm or deny this as truth, but I doubt we’re getting the full truth on NOX.

On a gasoline vehicle the engine temp is reduced to prevent NOX from forming at the high temps by injecting more raw fuel into the combustion chamber. (makes complete sense to reduce SMOG by burning more fuel right?) This unburnt fuel does the trick in reducing the NOX. In this case it seems as though the exhaust gasses would contain unburnt gas vapor.

It seems that the ECU's present a major hurdle in achieving high mileage as they always adjust for any improvements we can make. Seems like we need some electrical engineers to help out here. Maybe VW has some out of work TDI smog engineers??! HA.

(BTW I never could get my CNG vehicle to pass smog due to HIGH NOX.)
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EGR Delete in the public 31 Jan 2019 23:15 #6

  • Preston
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A short read:

Author claims the EGR valve is saving us fuel. Kind of makes sense from what he says.
"The EGR valve also helps your engine by richening up the air/fuel mixture but without additional fuel. It does this by reducing the amount of oxygen in the cylinders and thus the amount of fuel needed to keep a sane engine temperature while at cruising speeds."

But if we are getting a cleaner more through burn to begin with (with our Groove), we won't have any unburnt fuel to re-inject via the EGR right? Ron don't you have emissions results BEFORE and AFTER a groove? Is there any benefit to re-burning our exhaust??

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Last edit: by Preston.

EGR Delete in the public 01 Feb 2019 02:59 #7

  • neil
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The EGR provides return gasses as a heat sink. If there is any unburnt fuel being reburnt this has nothing to do with an EGR function!! It is like this, if you have a hot drink that is too hot you can put ice or cold water in to cool it down, the ice absorbs heat from the cup and reduces cup temperature. Even though exhaust gas is hot, it is still very cold compared to combustion temperatures. EGR's can be made more effective by cooling the exhaust gas down further using coolant, hot coolant is plenty cold enough still.
It is harder for a diesel to cool the combustion because diesels need to do it during the biggest combustion, accelerating periods, unlike petrol, that does it at light throttle openings. This is why diesels use so much more exhaust gas and must choose to cool it prior to putting back in the intake.
I have heard it many times how wonderful EGR valves must be, but they give us no better performance/economy. re-using unburnt fuel from the exhaust can sound good but that's not whats happening, and everyone loves reduced temperatures right?so you can make a good story, but its not coolant temperature they are talking about, and you need higher temperatures to get a good burn. EGR's are all bad apart from reducing NOX. It is wrong to say the EGR's help your engine. It helps the environment and it is true to say that if its good for the environment its probably bad for the engine....just ask VW.....
I like diesel and lpg for playing around because running lean doesn't cause high peak temperatures like petrol does (who would have believed less fuel could increase temperature). I wonder if the old leaded petrol used to get hot when leaned out, i suspect yes. But I have a feeling that all gaseous fuels, including vaporised petrol!, hydrogen etc only get hot when running rich.
I have been at the speedway and heard talk about running more fuel to cool the coolant temperature - yes the water temperature gauge is how they set the fuel mixtures - crazy stuff but it proves that running rich with petrol reduces combustion temperature.

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EGR Delete in the public 01 Feb 2019 05:49 #8

  • Ron Hatton
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neil wrote: 1) Obviously more fuel equals more heat. But this is the crazy thing about petrol - it actually does burn high temperatures when burnt with reduced fuel air ratio. It is a nonsense, but true.
2) The reason they want to stay under 1800 is because of NOX.
3) Petrol injects the egr under light acceleration when the vehicle id likely to be running lean.
4) NOX is a real problem, I dont say that because I know of anything that it causes, but because the powers that be have decided that NOX is a problem. Such a funny thing that the one thing caused by high temperature burns is considered nasty. Something that I cant confirm but have heard that by keeping the charge above 1800 for a time will cause the nox to change back into just nitrogen....


As I begin digesting your posts on the EGR system, I see a few things worthy of commentary, and I'll do my best to clear up some misconceptions.

Neil, don't feel yourself alone in regards to this, for the information you cite is correct, at least as far as TPTB want you to know. But, as is always the case, they only share partial truth, and allow misconceptions to flourish, which leads many down the Garden Path, so to speak. I will cover these here, item by item.


1) More Fuel=More Heat This is a very easily provable falsehood. Consider the Acetylene torch. A quantity of fuel delivered into atmosphere yields a yellow, sooty flame, and very cold. The more fuel you add does not change the temperature of the flame. It only creates more soot. However! Add Oxygen to the mix and the temperature soars. The same is true with any fuel. It is only the addition of EXTRA O2 that creates the temperatures which become (in some cases) alarming.

2) Staying under 1800 because of NOx The WHOLE truth about creation of NOx is two considerations must be made. You must consider BOTH temperature AND duration of burn. As documented in hundreds of my videos, once the duration of burn is reduced, NOx can be effectively eliminated from the exhaust stream. Add to this the fact that some Cats run as high as 1800 F, yet NOx is not created even though there is an abundance of fuel and O2 at that location,

3) EGR Injecting Exhaust Gas This is where it takes a little thought before grasping an issue. "Injection" occurs when a high pressure fluid is presented to a LOW pressure zone. In this case, the pressure is created as the exhaust gas is forced into the manifold. As the exhaust manifold represents a restriction in the stream, pressure will naturally be higher before the downpipe, the point at which all exhaust streams unite. Coupled with the reduced (below atmospheres) pressure of the intake manifold, flow to that region is accelerated.

It is ALL ABOUT FLUID DYNAMICS.

4) NOx is a Problem Indeed. It has been determined that an equal quantity of NOx as compared to CO2 (allegedly) destroys 300 times the amount of Ozone. So, I would agree that NOx is indeed a very serious concern. God love you, Neil (I do!) but your statement here conflict one with the other. (see item #2)

If we are to successfully manage the effort of eliminating the EGR (as a means to reduce NOx) then we have to approach it with complete understanding of the WHOLE equation. As The Gadgetman Groove accelerates combustion, we are able to achieve much more complete combustion inside the combustion chamber, leaving less fuel to exit the cylinder. This shortens the burn time while allowing more of the energy to be transformed into motive force rather than heat, which is another harmful element in the operation of any combustion-based energy device.

Ron
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EGR Delete in the public 01 Feb 2019 06:11 #9

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kman wrote: I tried an EGR delete by blocking the EGR passage into the block with a heat resistant solid gasket.
Saw no difference and I dont know if it gave me a code but I eventually took it off.
Cant say if it works or not since my vehicle was resistant to any success as some of us know.


Karl, as you seem to be repeatedly running into issues with success, there are only two possibilities to my reckoning, both leading to only one conclusion. You must be the source of your failures.

Please don't think me harsh, because we have had a long history and I appreciate your intelligence more than any other here can. The main issue I have found with the super-smart is they find their own intellect more than reliable. In fact, as they enter into a project, they may get a little guidance as to which direction they want to take, but at that point, they tend to take the bit into their teeth and run like the wind!

The same is true for the vast majority of people that get my training package. Most never read the manual in its entirety. They usually stop around the part where it describes how to cut The Groove correctly. But here's something you have all heard me say before (and how TPTB have controlled the direction of our development!) "Consider only a PART of the equation, achieve only a FRACTION of the solution."

I have seen many people fall by the wayside because of an inadequate education. Many I have contacted after some time had passed without their active presence to find they had simply "Quit" when faced with failure. Please don't let that happen to you. If you KNOW that something has helped others, yet you have been unable to achieve a like result, DON'T QUIT!!!

Find out why. For that to happen, you must approach those who HAVE been successful and ask for their input.


With the EGR delete, certain considerations must be made. First and foremost is the fact that it IS allowing fluid into the intake manifold. That means it IS increasing the pressure inside that region. As your FUEL is delivered there, then it stands to reason that it MUST make it harder for the fuel to vaporize, thus slowing the combustion process and forcing more energy into the exhaust where it is dissipated in the form of HEAT, rather than creating motive force to drive the piston.

Considering this, then you must have missed something. It's nothing to be ashamed of, but you are the one that can turn yourself into a screaming cauldron of power! You have to start (as do I) by admitting not only your genius, but the natural tendencies of that genius as applied to yourself that would tend to weaken or completely dissipate your results.

Look first at your processes and examine them for completeness. If you reach a stopping point, and are convinced that you did everything RIGHT, then you can be DAMNED sure you didn't if you didn't get the expected results!

For all of you that are being thwarted, remember this "The ONLY way to FAIL is to STOP TRYING!!!"

Now, the EGR should not be blocked. This could cause MIL's in MANY applications. I suggest (as previously posted) something to attempt would be to allow it to vent into the intake air stream, but BEFORE the throttle plate. This would allow for flow through the system so for those systems with electronic monitoring of that flow, the ECU should not be negatively affected.

Keep going guys! I LOVE THIS!!!!

Ron
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EGR Delete in the public 01 Feb 2019 06:14 #10

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Preston wrote: I’d like to chime in here with Neil on the NOX issue. Having to smog test a CNG vehicle here in the People’s Republic of Kalifornia i learned a bit about NOX. NOX is supposedly not “smog” in and of itself but rather a precursor to smog. (whatever that means) I can’t confirm or deny this as truth, but I doubt we’re getting the full truth on NOX.


PLUS 2 KARMA, PRESTON! You are DEFINITELY on the right path! KEEP ON KEEPIN' ON!!!!

Everybody else, let's keep an eye on Preston. This boy has a unique point of view and is worthy of following!

Ron
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EGR Delete in the public 01 Feb 2019 06:17 #11

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Preston wrote: …But if we are getting a cleaner more through burn to begin with (with our Groove), we won't have any unburnt fuel to re-inject via the EGR right? Ron don't you have emissions results BEFORE and AFTER a groove? Is there any benefit to re-burning our exhaust??


SUPERB question, Preston.

Here's my reply: "If you are garnering ALL THE ENERGY from the fuel INSIDE the combustion chamber, is there ANYTHING LEFT to exhaust?"

Clearly, no.

Ron
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EGR Delete in the public 01 Feb 2019 10:18 #12

  • GregK
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Preston wrote: A short read:

Author claims the EGR valve is saving us fuel. Kind of makes sense from what he says.
"The EGR valve also helps your engine by richening up the air/fuel mixture but without additional fuel. It does this by reducing the amount of oxygen in the cylinders and thus the amount of fuel needed to keep a sane engine temperature while at cruising speeds."

But if we are getting a cleaner more through burn to begin with (with our Groove), we won't have any unburnt fuel to re-inject via the EGR right? Ron don't you have emissions results BEFORE and AFTER a groove? Is there any benefit to re-burning our exhaust??


it's the heat, not the unburned fuel. the warmer air going back to the intake does displace colder air, yes, but I think/believe it probably also helps vaporize new fuel being injected.
unfortunately, as it is on cars for the past 20-ish years, putting the valve on or connected to the manifold destroys the vacuum that also rips fuel vapours that burn from the atomized droplets that do not. I don't think heat is as effective at vaporizing fuel as vacuum is, and That's why I believe EGR should recycle to upstream of the TB.

kman, it sounds like you just blocked the port into the manifold off, Ron might say that's only part of the job, and I'm of a mind to agree. you applied a bandaid. did you not consider that the engine might NEED and FUNCTION BETTER with the exhaust in the intake airstream? obviously not, because you were defeated by the lack of initial results. had you tried to re-route the exhaust gasses - perhaps adding them to the PCV airstream - you mightve achieved higher/better results.
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