Talk about other methods for increasing fuel efficiency.

TOPIC: EGR Delete in the public

EGR Delete in the public 01 Feb 2019 10:43 #13

  • Preston
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Since the Groove gets us a cleaner more complete burn we can't compare an EGR functionality on a Grooved engine with that of a standard setup. How does the EGR affect "US"?

I'm just thinking out loud here, but I'd think that it would reduce the Oxygen in the combustion chamber as the Oxygen should of been used in the previous burn stroke right? I don't know what kind of flow an EGR actually has but if it reduces Oxygen with inert gases (guessing here) it could be doing us a disservice. Probably would not account for much Oxygen displacement with exhaust gasses (mainly Nitrogen?).

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EGR Delete in the public 01 Feb 2019 11:23 #14

  • GregK
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That’s where you’re mistaken, Preston. There’s plenty of oxygen left over after combustion. So much so that they put a sensor on to make sure we use more of it up by pumping more gas the next go-round. What the 02 sensor should be is one that detects unburned HCs and trims the delivery of them back.

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EGR Delete in the public 01 Feb 2019 12:19 #15

  • Tracy Gallaway
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Guys, hats off to everyone posting in this thread!!:cheer: Hi again Karl, long time buddy!
So, is it generally agreed, that the thing to do w/ the EGR gas, is to re-route it to the intake air Before the throttle plate? This sounds like it has promise.
Question is: How to physically do that? OK- adding pipes/hoses and "splicing" into the inlet duct is easy enough. Today we have heat resistant silicone hose in various sizes available. All kinds of tee's, joiner's, unions, etc. at auto parts and hardware stores. Lots of aftermarket molded plastic, rubber, silicone duct pieces like for those cone shaped cold air filters, and for Turbo's.

The EGR valve seems the place to do the re-routing. There will be different styles of EGR's. I'm trying to imagine methods and materials needed to do this?
The relatively few EGR's I've dealt with were integrated onto the intake manifold, like old 70's/80's V-8's. The EGR is an intersection where exhaust is brought to the intake manifold plenum.

Now, if an EGR valve's design has the outlet side of the valve going into a metal tube/pipe that then leads to the intake manifold- Then I can see an easy way to re-direct the exhaust gas. Go to the first page of this thread, down to post #2, from Greg K. Click the blue link word "this", then go to post #10 from GM Tim. Here's a pic of a GM engine, a clear example of this. The big pipe w/ woven insulation between the EGR valve and intake man.. An obvious place to cut, cap the end to the intake man.,and re-route the EGR gas to the inlet air duct before the TB. Perhaps, cut that pipe and remove a couple inches of it. Leave enough on the intake man. end to put a thick rubber or silicone cap w/ a clamp. Then maybe a brass 90 deg. compression fitting on the EGR pipe, then a nipple on the comp. fitting. Then hose able to stand the temps, up to the main air duct. If you look close in this pic, you can see the black air duct at top of the pic.

When the EGR valve is integrated, meaning the passages to/from the EGR valve are cast into something, like an intake manifold, or whatever...I dunno. That's a horse of a Different color, right? I'm hitting a wall here.

Ideas?

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Last edit: by Tracy Gallaway. Reason: more info

EGR Delete in the public 01 Feb 2019 12:33 #16

  • kman
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Greg,
I did reroute the exhaust from the EGR after I blocked it going into the block. I took one of the thin tubes coming off the main EGR tube and routed it through an HCS system.
This had a constant vacuum due to the route ending up at a manifold vacuum nipple. So it went from the EGR tube, thru the HCS bottle and a copper tube wrapped around the exhaust manifold to heat up contents(to crack the 18H molecules off the HcHcHc....etc. "gasoline" molecule) to the MAN nipple. So when this worked(that can be archived for length of thread) the truck "floated" for lack of a better word and my MPG's went up about double if I can remember.
So when the HCS did not crack, which was 95% of the time, I was at least getting exhaust gas(and some gasoline vapors) into the engine thus not totally eliminating the EGR purpose or wasting the unburnt fuel going to the CAT.
Hey Tracy,
Thought you would chime in on the EGR since I thought that was already an issue we covered a couple of years ago.
I keep mentioning to people how you got 72 MPG's on your car on your best run showing it can be done.
Also had you do the groove on the second TB I installed since my groove didn't seem to make any difference and the second one was even giving me high idle because of the IAC reroute.
You did a great and meticulous job but my truck rejected the TB improv you did so I felt better in a way that it wasn't me who was doing something wrong.
Think you even commented that there must be a ghost in the engine. I gave up on that clunker.
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Last edit: by kman.

EGR Delete in the public 01 Feb 2019 15:06 #17

  • GregK
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Tracy - Exhaust gasses coming off the exhaust manifold are WAY too hot (right? see here ) to simply pipe into the silicone-ish intake tube, but if they were combined with blowby condensate ... follow?
I seem to recall a Mr Merrick (the MPG Remedy guy) who used to party with us mention stainless steel Natural gas lines, like people use to connect to their dryers or hot water heaters..it's flexible and inexpensive

kman basically said it doubled his mileage, what I just proposed....and Karl, while I appreciate the cold, hard way you share the reality of your experience, can you share it in a manner less like Eeyore from Winny the Pooh please?

Ron should be pleased with us if he's following along here...but he may bring up that o2 sensors need to see a certain temperature...so even with some insulation on the exhaust pipe , we may not get that sensor where it wants/needs to be, especially once we're in an efficient burn zone, more especially when the weather is cold like now. still though, for every breakthrough/discovery, there has to be a setback to make you appreciate it. stepping back to get a better understanding of the BIG PICTURE always comes in handy. we'll figure it out - it's what we do.
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Last edit: by GregK.

EGR Delete in the public 01 Feb 2019 22:15 #18

  • kman
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"kman basically said it doubled his mileage, what I just proposed....and Karl, while I appreciate the cold, hard way you share the reality of your experience, can you share it in a manner less like Eeyore from Winny the Pooh please?"

It was supposedly the HSC that did the trick on the euphoric ride when the mileage almost doubled(scan gauge numbers).
Not familiar with Pooh cartoons or characters. Have to splain it to me. Received my education thru the Looney Tunes University.

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EGR Delete in the public 02 Feb 2019 13:01 #19

  • GregK
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You poor guy...Let me fix that for you:

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EGR Delete in the public 02 Feb 2019 19:46 #20

  • Tracy Gallaway
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So I did a search for high temp industrial hose, and found this site:

While this stainless hose looks very promising re:durability, it sounds like it is intended to be welded to steel fittings. Gotta be big$$. Need to order it-minimums, price, and the need to provide specs for size/length...Not very Gadgetman style stuff.

Earlier I mentioned cutting that steel tube and adding brass compression fitting. I'm likely wrong there, brass compression intended for copper tubing I think. Compression fittings MIGHT work on that steel pipe, might not. You are right about silicone in that spec sheet Greg. Upper temp limit is only 500 Deg. F.

So I searched for stainless flex natural gas hose, and found this:



So this is 1/2" ID or so flex stainless hose w/ yellow polypropalene outer jacketing. The stainless is ten thousandths of an inch thick. Probably need to remove the outer yellow jacket, at least the EGR end. Looks to be intended to use w/ proprietary fittings to seal for nat. gas. At least it's at Home Depot. I will look for it next visit there.

The only fairly cheap alternative is copper tubing/brass comp. fittings. I have questions/doubts as to those being able to handle possible temps involved. The only time I've seen copper used anywhere in exhaust apps, is for header gaskets.

This kind of thing MIGHT be workable...depending. If the EGR has an outlet pipe to the intake man., that is.

For EGR's where the exhaust in and intake man. out are integrated into the EGR valve itself, I see no easy methods.

As to grafting/adding in etc. crankcase gas/water vapor, water condensate, etc.--it's squirrelly. That crankcase condensate is inconsistent as a feedstock. It comes and goes. Something could be fashioned, sure. In that when there IS condensate available, well you can try to make use of it. But I don't see it being a consistently available thing. IF it IS in any useful amount, well then THAT is a PROBLEM.

If we wanted to add water vapor, say, then there ought to be a reservoir supply available, to make it a consistent thing.
I have looked/searched for years to try and find a good water injection system. Everything I've ever seen, SO FAR, has inherent flaws. I believe it's Water Vapor, not liquid, not steam, but humidity that could help.

Greg, Has GW got anything good for water vapor?

PS- the site or hosting or whatever would not accept external links--sorry!

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Last edit: by Tracy Gallaway. Reason: more info

EGR Delete in the public 03 Feb 2019 02:49 #21

  • GregK
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Tracy - George has always been a bit cryptic with me about his solutions, preferring to have people do their own research so they can learn from the process and make their own conclusions and come up with solutions for their own applications - Gadgetman thinking. That said, he has books about “Water as Fuel” and “Water Injection” that will likely give some scientific reasoning behind his techniques - I haven’t bought either, but I’m coming close to given this thread/discussion.

I’ve poked around on YouTube quite a bit, and solutions vary considerably. Metering the water droplets is one issue, so a valve is generally applied on the vacuum source to intake manifold; another is making droplets fine enough, and a common addition to the air supply hose in the bubbler vessel is an air stone from aquarium. Some even go so far as to put a stainless steel scrubber pad as a filter in the vessel near the vacuum source to act as a bit of insurance agains sucking a stream of water into the intake. Quite the balancing act- but in our modern cars, presenting unmetered air to the engine is probably the biggest. Another is keeping the water liquid in freezing conditions- some heat it, some add alcohol, some just use windshield washer fluid or methanol or isopropyl alcohol, and some go so far as to pressurize water/alcohol into a mister nozzle at some point in the intake...I lean toward the steam solution myself, but I worry about ice forming on the TB or inside the manifold when the weather is cold.
So with all of those possibilities/concerns, George’s “figure it out” is a pretty wise plan of attack.
I’m glad this discussion is happening, so people can take a moment to pause and consider all the options and potential issues, beyond all of the benefits of not using as much fuel.

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EGR Delete in the public 03 Feb 2019 20:34 #22

  • Tracy Gallaway
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I played 'round with a homemade water bubbler 12 years ago on Subie. A clear plastic tube about 1 1/2" dia, maybe 9" high. A short aquarium hose w/ a small drip irrigation valve on the end led into and down to bottom of the plastic tube. Then an aquarium stone on the end for bubbles. The outlet tube thru the top led to a man. vac. nipple. I could regulate the flow/bubbles w/ the drip irr. valve. It was neato, and I added alcohol in winter to prevent freezing.

Didn't seem to produce any effect/benefit. 'Course it represented a vac. leak. Maybe w/ Plasma Ignition it might have had benefit.

So here's an idea. How 'bout- if/when possible to redirect EGR gasses, to direct into a small tank/reservoir, with water in it? Could we get some steam/water vapor? Anyone recall the idea of the "BB jar" from the late Bruce McBurney?

A stainless round can or jar of appropriate size. EGR gas enters at the bottom or on side at bottom. A small void area in bottom of the can, and a stainless mesh screen fashioned such that it keeps copper BB's above the small void area, to keep the EGR line clear. BB's perhaps other small bits of other metal as well, act as a heated bed. Water is slowly dripped into the jar from top. Would need a separate reservoir, an inline valve to control feed rate, and prob. a 12V solonoid valve setup to open only after engine is running and warmed up. In other words, water drops only come in at the right time/rate.

Just a hazy first idea. If you are running The PCV (restricted?) to man vacuum, with an oil separator inline before the vac. nipple- And a drain hose from the BMW cyclone oil separator- Could you direct that drain hose to the stainless can? Well, one thing to remember, is that this arrangement would put the can exposed to whatever vacuum level the PCV setup is at. On top of that, the oil separator drain hose needs a down slope to work right. So now you have need for some vertical separation of the oil separator so the drain line works.

It gets better- the EGR gas is coming in under pressure to the can. Did I just design a Rube Goldberg underhood train wreck?
I think I just wandered into a mental Box Canyon! IS there anything useful in this?

Tracy G.
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Last edit: by Tracy Gallaway.

EGR Delete in the public 04 Feb 2019 10:34 #23

  • GregK
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well, yeah I think there is a benefit to exploring these things. If we can get the EGR (like the PCV system) to vent to the passive side of the intake tract, we're taking one of the variables out of the equation that is under computer control that's important to our cause: maintaining a consistent deep vacuum in the intake manifold to help create a strong Groove waveform. That EGR is a factory controlled leak, and also a seemingly necessary one (we havent really gotten into debate whether it's the lower air density that's good, or if there really are that many unburned hydrocarbons getting recycled), but we have some evidence of it being beneficial to efficiency if not performance to have some measure of exhaust come back into the intake. .
Byproducts of combustion, including water vapour, brought up the water injection aspect, with the WW2 bomber engines used as the example - what we haven't taken into account is that those big old rotary engines delivered hundreds more horsepower than passenger vehicles on the road today, nor have we considered that they (the bombers) ran on aviation kerosene/diesel rather than gasoline, a completely different animal that the automotive gas we put in our rides. Considering it's easier to add more water vapour to the intake tract of a car than to modify the EGR system (in a great number of cases), it would seem to be the best way to test whether it's beneficial to our cause before undertaking some much more heavy lifting.

but as to your vacuum leak/limited benefit, I suspect that the inlet air supply to even the simplest of bubblers would have to be taken from the post-metered side of the intake, and returned directly into the manifold so that the computer can't see a leak to really "science up" any testing...or any water vapour made (by a steam loop on the exhaust, for instance) without manifold vacuum be introduced prior to intake air metering sensors so the computer can account for it from the start rather than correct for it after the fact.
It's all about technique and application, something gadgetment should be most mindful of.
rube goldberg - no, I think the solution is a lot more simple and elegant than we're allowing ourselves to think. Box canyon - well, you don't really know as an explorer until you go into the canyon if it's a box or not, do you? (I think, like Columbus, there is no edge of the world to sail off of)
I'll try to draw up some of my ideas and post the pics here later if time allows later today.
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EGR Delete in the public 04 Feb 2019 16:15 #24

  • Ron Hatton
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GregK wrote: That’s where you’re mistaken, Preston. There’s plenty of oxygen left over after combustion. So much so that they put a sensor on to make sure we use more of it up by pumping more gas the next go-round. What the 02 sensor should be is one that detects unburned HCs and trims the delivery of them back.


And that is EXACTLY what the O2 sensor is. It is NOT an "Oxygen Sensor", and this is obvious once you take one apart and examine it. It is actually made of a porous porcelain with to metal connectors on each side. As the exhaust passes over the sensor tip, the raw HC's penetrate the porcelain and begin to conduct electricity between the two contacts. As the density of the HC's increase, the ECU reads that as a rich condition and leans the mix.

The phrase "Oxygen Sensor" is actually a misnomer to misdirect us in our quest to conquer their efforts to keep our consumption high.

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