TOPIC: EGR Delete in the public

GregK wrote: ....and Karl, while I appreciate the cold, hard way you share the reality of your experience, can you share it in a manner less like Eeyore from Winny the Pooh please?

Greg, please pay attention to how your comments may be taken by readers. This was more than a little insulting, and it wasn't even directed at me.

When people have repeated experiences of failure, it is only natural to want to give up. It is our job as their brothers at arms to encourage them to continue until they reach a measure of success.

By insulting commentary, you diminish the likelihood of their continuing their efforts. Karl is a damn good man and has contributed much to our discussions and deserves being honored for his contributions, not your condescension.

Thank you for toning down your approach. We are all grateful for your detailed data and opinions, so keep up the good work!

Ron

Apologies to Karl, and everyone here who was offended.

Moving forward, this just showed up in my YouTube feed:



While BMW's research or focus was on a turbocharged engine, I'd wager that there are some principles that carry over to naturally aspirated ones as well.
It seems like I may have been on the right track with one of BMW's cyclone seperators feeding a tube wrapped around the exhaust to steam back into the intake. and EGR vapors. The video creator, a schooled engineer who has worked for carmakers (check his youtube "about"), was quite clear in his presentation that placement of the vapor injection/return line in the intake tract was rather important.

Hi Greg, though the link isn't there, it sounds like you've found a piece of good evidence to support the ideas in this thread. Implementing this is about how to place, arrange and install needed components. A key bit of it I think is the fact that the bottom drain nipple on the BMW oil separator, would need to be above the pipe leading to the exhaust. Since the separator uses gravity to drain.

Then the "flow paths" of everything need careful scrutiny. There is a mix of varying vacuum/pressure things in all of this. Would it be better to handle the PCV vapors separately in a separate heating-and-feeding to intake stream, from the EGR gas setup? I dunno yet.

I too have tried to add external links to posts recently, and it didn't work. I'd sure like to see that video you reference here! You've become VERY good at finding key info, buddy! Thanks!

Tracy G

Well, dang. when I made that reply/post, I SAW the embedded YouTube window with the appropriate/referenced video, but now it's gone. I think I'll just post the link, if that works.

Try this, everyone:

Tracy - I only go looking for the basics on a very broad level. the specifics have a habit of landing in those searches, right in my lap. It's not me, dude, it's the algorithms...and maybe a bit of spying on/listening to me!

Today I stopped at Home Depot to investigate the stainless natural gas tubing and fittings. Dan Merrick spoke of this several years ago, I was too something to understand it.

Turns out, that Yes, Home Depot does stock a corrugated stainless hose w/ yellow plastic sheathing. It's made for natural gas hookups, and will mate to black iron Nat gas piping. Smallest dia. is called 1/2", but the I.D. is bigger, about pinkie finger size. There are also proprietary brass male and female end fittings to connect this hose to other NPT fittings. This might make these items useful in rigging some kind of EGR re-routing scheme. Looks like you have to use the hose and end fittings together, then adapt to other NPT fittings. These items were in a plumbing aisle, and other fittings of many types were nearby.

Then right next to the yellow hose and brass fittings I saw an interesting stainless manifold. It's made to branch off multiple nat gas feeds, and uses the same NPT threads as the proprietary fittings. This piece grabbed my imagination instantly. A total of 6 female NPT bungs, all stainless, about $15 bucks. The roll of 1/2" hose, 25 ft. I think, was about $45 bucks, the proprietary fittings were about 7 or 8 bucks each. So, it's not all exactly cheap- but a lot less than other Industrial similar materials. And- it's at Home Depot.

So, I'll post this and the pics, to inform anyone interested!

Tracy G

I'd not be surprised in the least if the inlet threading on most if not all of the digital EGR valves (like on my GM vehicle) fit some NPT standard, or there were adapters to make the plumbing dead simple.
I'd also not be surprised if those manifolds came in both larger and smaller inlet/outlet counts.

I've been toying with replacing my stock intake tube with a sexy silicone one since they're all the rage with the tuners. I found this website:
Silicone Port System
and yes, the link was purposefully chosen! 1/2" NPT threads on the port meant to be inserted in your intake tubing...

The only concern I have is I would be pumping hot exhaust into a silicone tube that might not be able to withstand the full exhaust heat?...but if we pumped in some more water between the exhaust and the intake to absorb the heat...?
of course, exhaust temperatures would drop as we lean out fuel delivery...
another potential issue - making the ECU not throw a code when it tries to trigger an EGR valve that doesn't exist..further on the computer - you'd definitely need to make the o2 sensors happy with EFIEs otherwise it will always see very lean.
Would these mods need to be put upstream of the MAF so it can compensate in fuel delivery calculation based on the Mass of air demanded, which is fact-checked and error corrected by the o2s?
this is a potential deep dive on any car...

With the yellow sheath removed, the stainless tubing's corrugations would dissipate heat. It could be a heat sink. Look for one of those sexy polished metal duct parts with a hose nipple fitting, the nipple is where you connect the EGR exhaust gas...?

Perhaps before we go further on this idea, we need to look at lots of EGR valves. Question is: how common today are EGR valves that are mounted in external vs. integral style? I remember that older American engines usually had EGR mounted integral on intake man. So are they mostly external mount today? Here's a link to a photo display of EGR valves. A few pic's are captioned re: EGR delete, looked mostly for Diesel app's Most of these pic's look like integral mounting...


egr valves photos - Google Search

So, I dunno...so far, I think EGR re-routing is possible in some cases. Just not as universally easy as say, the PCV re-route or blocking mod.

Tracy G

Here's an article I believe we can all benefit from:
AutoSpeed - Technology, Efficiency, Performance

In the sidebar, they modded the Insight to vent EGR more continuously into the manifold via the Integrated valve, which is a vacuum leak. had they re-routed the exhaust flow as I've been suggesting in this thread (because engines need the water vapour) to before the TB, to a variable vacuum source, and also displacing cooler intake air, I bet we could gain at least 3x the 3% this car did in general. This, and a BMW cyclone on the PCV with a steam coil, also into the intake before the TB...can we get a 20% or more gain in mileage? I'd not be surprised.

Absolutely not as easy as our PCV re-route. but those warm vapours from the crankcase are displacing cooler (more dense - HEAVIER) outside air and aiding in increasing MPG, plus we're eliminating a vacuum leak, a factory designed, constant one. (Right?)
Deleting the EGR would throw those vapours people call exhaust at the Catalytic Converter to be neutralized, when they still have LOTS of unburned hydrocarbon fuel in them.
An EGR re-route as I'm suggesting would eliminate another factory-programmed (Variable and much larger) vacuum leak, and recycle MORE of the vapours from the biggest source of them, BEFORE the Catalytic wastes the energy remaining.in them.

Hi
Regarding the THEME ”more fuel = less heat” makes actually sense if we start to think “’up-side-down” - just to get an different perspective- and thinking not straight forward in the box as we where thought by default. Maybe if we could start thinking ’’up-side-down” more often in day to day’s life. We might discover solutions and explanations for things where we were barking up the wrong tree and expecting expected result.
Adding more fuel would logical add up in more heat or power. Yes? -Theoretical.
If we look at this with “’’up-side-down” thinking, adding more fuel equals to reducing oxygen.
So if we reduce oxygen by a given amount of fuel we reduce heat.
If we add fuel to a given amount of oxygen we reduce heat as well.

Regards
Kim

Just wish to add my 2 cents. Now egr is vacuum operated and so easiest way I could figure was to block the vacuum line. No codes but not sure if it is working. Any feed back is welcome:) cj

I've had a change of thought/heart about the EGR system in our cases:
because we can (and likely often do) operate at low throttle angles, we need to keep our stock systems in place. Even though they are massive vacuum leaks that are computer controlled, I've come to believe that recycling the warm moist exhaust air through our engines is key to them running smoothly.

Pumping losses at part throttle

so by balancing pressures between intake and exhaust using exhaust recirculation when throttle angles are low (and throttle angle translates to fuel delivery), you're keeping your injector pulse duration tight and re-using unburned fuel and water vapour (which helps new fuel burn cooler and more completely...and the steam helps keep internals clean), and the engine keeps turning smoothly and effortlessly as it was designed to.

(that balancing of pressures between intake and exhaust -regulating them closer to atmospheric pressure, actually- lends credence to people who open up their exhaust systems with larger diameter pipes, headers, etc as far as generation of power from an engine...same for intake mods as well, come to think of it. and our wee groove too)

lots going on in throttle bodies/carbs....