Welcome, Guest
Username: Password:
Talk about other methods for increasing fuel efficiency.
  • Page:
  • 1

TOPIC: Thoughts on fuel and fuel systems

Thoughts on fuel and fuel systems 23 Aug 2021 20:31 #1

  • Tracy Gallaway
  • Offline
  • Founder
  • Founder
  • Posts: 1881
  • Karma: 178
  • Thank you received: 564
I've been thinking about fuel (gasoline), fuel quality, fuel system cleanliness, etc. lately.
I spoke to a recent Groove customer, who's also a Mechanic with a shop on this topic recently. I also, spoke to a prospective Groove customer, and he gave me some interesting info.

First off, the Mechanic with his own shop gave me some insights about gas quality. He said that, like I've believed for a long tome, that most drivers, will just buy the cheapest regular grade gas they can get. This means that their fuel systems get grunged up over time. Brand X regular gas, won't usually have the best detergent additives in it, and it will contain at least 10% alcohol in it. Alcohol, is hydroscopic, meaning it mixes with and can hold water.

Other sources I've talked to, have said that laws or reg's that refiners operate under, now allow them to basically use Regular gas to get rid of byproducts. It's this junk in the gas, that makes detergents and other additives important to keep the injectors, intake valves, fuel pumps, and combustion chambers clean.

Just go to any auto parts store or section in big stores, and you will find a variety of fuel system cleaners, more than I've ever seen before, too.
The Groove customer prospect I spoke to has a Dodge truck with the lower performance version of the Viper V-10 engine, He said he had his mechanic, do a BG fuel system treatment to his truck recently. I think he said, this took the MPG's from 14 to 16 MPG, over a week or two of driving.

Greg K, in Canada, says that Premium grade gas supposedly has NO alcohol in it, throughout North America. This info was co-oberated from another source. There are some stations, that sell alcohol-free regular gas, at close to the price of Premium, or a bit more. Owners of small engines, lawn mowers, and other such power equipment, say that regular gas is hell on their carburetors and engines.

We do have SnakeOil for fuel systems, of course. This is mainly to make the injectors and fuel pumps run better, repair wear and then help prevent wear in the metal moving parts in the fuel systems, i.e. injectors and fuel pumps. Since the active ingredient in SnakeOil for fuel systems has the lowest coefficient of friction known, it can help keep grunge from adhering to these metal parts, too. It's more of a long-term maintenance thing, than aggressive fuel system cleaner.

Now, I'm thinking that it's possible and likely that MANY vehicles on the road today, considering especially that many folks are getting 20 or more years out of lots of cars/trucks----that many many vehicles have dirty fuel systems. Add cheap regular gas with alcohol in it, plus vehicles with well past 100K and even 200K miles on them, and neglected fuel systems--and you get a LOT of folks getting worse mileage and performance. Just when fuel prices are the highest in YEARS!!

Anyone else have ideas about this?

Tracy G.
Gadgetman Groove Operations Manager
Tracy Gallaway
Founder and Constant Aide to Gadgetman
Gadgetman Reno, NV
The following user(s) said Thank You: GregK

Please Log in to join the conversation.

Thoughts on fuel and fuel systems 24 Aug 2021 21:05 #2

  • GregK
  • Offline
  • Friends of Gadgetman
  • Friends of Gadgetman
  • Posts: 1283
  • Karma: 114
  • Thank you received: 652
Yes, Premium gasoline in most countries today is ethanol-Free (regardless of octane/RON-MON rating). I've emailed and gotten responses from most of Canada's major chain fuel retailers - they all state that premium fuel is ethanol free. Petro Canada's Ultra94 they inherited from Sunoco is another story: There is Ultra94 at certain stations, but if you email customer service and ask, there's 10% ethanol on TOP of the 91-92 octane for the extra couple of points. Then there's the "Top Tier" cabal... About - TOP TIER™

I was filling up at Costco the other week - their "kirkland" branded gas (also a Top Tier Fuel) is sold as having something like "5 times the detergent quantities of other brands" - but I overheard an interesting convo between 2 people acquainted with each other who had pulled in to fill up at the same time. They discovered that if they use premium, they get noticeably better mileage...and it doesn't cost that much more per mile. It reaffirmed my own experience as well. (if i put it on my Costco credit card, 4% of my fuel purchases are applied to my membership fees/dues or can be refunded as cash too, so they've really made it a no-brainer: pay a little more, get better mileage, and get some of what you spend at the pumps back as a refund)

This is actually a decent video, even if they don't have the animation quite right: for a port injected engine

Here's what the good ol' Triple A has to say: AAA link

On the right side of the header of the page with the headline, there's a link to a picture. You should check that out...and think about making the switch.

OK - when Covid shut the world down roughly 18mo ago, I wasn't working as much, and I wasn't driving as much, so I didn't need to fuel up as much. money got tight for me so I switched to whatever was least expensive to go get groceries and whatnot. when things returned to normal-ish for me, I started using premium again, but I started getting EGR codes. I'm guessing the pipes are getting blown out of whatever built up over time, and especially in the last 6mo-1yr. Mileage is back up, I've Put Snake oil in my fuel system, engine oil, transmission and power steering...and man, my Wendy drives like she's brand new again. The engine and transmission are in harmony, it drives like it did when I first grooved it...but I can hear little chassis squeaks, which is normal for a 14yr old car with 275k km/170k Miles.

Fuel makes a difference, and Snake Oil is the real deal, folks.
Greg Kusiak
Most Active Member
Audiophile
The following user(s) said Thank You: Tracy Gallaway

Please Log in to join the conversation.

Thoughts on fuel and fuel systems 24 Aug 2021 21:34 #3

  • Tracy Gallaway
  • Offline
  • Founder
  • Founder
  • Posts: 1881
  • Karma: 178
  • Thank you received: 564
Greg, thank you for your inputs on this. I looked at all the links you posted, but the AAA link is broken , it gives a 404code, page not found. so I couldn't look at what you speak of.
But in any case, the topic of gasoline quality, additives, fuel and intake system cleanliness, and, yes, using Snake Oil products, are HIGHLY relevant today!:cheer:

We eat food to power our bodies. Your vehicle and engine "eat" gas.
What happens if you go on a Junk food diet for months on end...??:pinch:

well, how do ya think that poor 'ol ride of yours feels right now??
Maybe it deserves a better "diet"??!!:huh:

Switching to higher grade top tier gas and using a fuel system cleaner on a regular schedule can pay dividends.

And, your ride will LOVE Snake Oil products, I Promise! there's nothing else quite like 'em!:woohoo:

thanks Greg!
Tracy G.
Tracy Gallaway
Founder and Constant Aide to Gadgetman
Gadgetman Reno, NV

Please Log in to join the conversation.

Thoughts on fuel and fuel systems 25 Aug 2021 08:44 #4

  • GregK
  • Offline
  • Friends of Gadgetman
  • Friends of Gadgetman
  • Posts: 1283
  • Karma: 114
  • Thank you received: 652
Dang it - Sorry everybody.
Here's the AAA link. I hope this one works!
AAA: Not All Gasoline Created Equal | AAA Newsroom
Advanced Search
Click this icon to learn more about our commitment to customers and employees with disabilities.
Automotive

AAA: Not All Gasoline Created Equal

Tests show quality gasoline keeps engines 19 times cleaner

ORLANDO, Fla. (July 7, 2016) – New testing from AAA has uncovered significant differences in the quality of gasoline sold at fuel retailers in the United States. The independent laboratory testing compared gasolines that meet TOP TIER™ standards often marketed to consumers as having enhanced, engine-cleaning detergent additives with gasoline brands that do not participate in the automaker-backed program. Among brands tested, non-TOP TIER gasolines caused 19 times more engine deposits than TOP TIER brands after just 4,000 miles of simulated driving. Such carbon deposits are known to reduce fuel economy, increase emissions and negatively impact vehicle performance, particularly on newer vehicles. To protect vehicle investments, AAA urges drivers to use a gasoline that meets TOP TIER standards for engine cleanliness and performance.

“AAA was surprised to learn the extent to which detergent additives impact gasoline quality,” revealed Greg Brannon, AAA’s managing director of Automotive Engineering and Repair. “As advertised, tested TOP TIER gasolines kept engines remarkably cleaner than other fuels we tested.”

In response to increasing levels of carbon deposits in modern engine designs, the Environmental Protection Agency mandated a minimum level of detergent for all gasoline sold in the United States in 1996. However, some automakers believe the minimum does not go far enough to ensure optimal vehicle performance and their ability to meet increasingly-stringent fuel economy and emissions requirements. The TOP TIER program and performance standard were developed to guarantee that program participants’ gasoline meets stricter targets for engine cleanliness.

“When it comes to selecting a gasoline, automakers got it right – TOP TIER gasoline performs best,” continued Brannon. “By selecting a quality gasoline, drivers can minimize engine deposits, increase vehicle performance and improve fuel economy.”

Despite the fact that two-thirds of U.S. drivers believe there is a difference in quality of gasoline sold by different gas stations, a AAA survey reveals that Americans value convenience and price over quality when it comes to selecting a gas station.

  • Three-quarters of U.S. drivers choose a gas station based on location (75 percent) or price (73 percent).
  • Nearly one-third (29 percent) of U.S drivers choose a gas station based on a rewards program.
  • Only 12 percent of U.S. drivers select a gas station based on whether the gasoline contains an enhanced detergent package.
  • Nearly half (47 percent) of U.S. drivers do not regularly buy gasoline that contains an enhanced detergent additive.
  • Men (44 percent) are more likely than women (26 percent) to regularly buy a gasoline that contains an enhanced detergent package, as are baby boomers (41 percent) compared to millennials (32 percent).

“Americans are six times more likely to choose a gas station based on the price of gasoline rather than the quality of the fuel,” continued Nielsen. “Since TOP TIER gasoline is widely available and only an average of three cents more per gallon, AAA urges drivers to reconsider their priorities when selecting a gas station.”

To ensure a gas station sells a high quality gasoline, consumers should research the fuel options near them. According to TOP TIER, one-third of gas stations meet the TOP TIER standard for fuel quality. Retailers interested in participating in the TOP TIER program can find additional information here.

“Fortunately, consumers can reverse some engine deposits simply by switching gasoline brands,” said Greg Brannon, AAA’s director of Automotive Engineering. “After a few thousand miles with TOP TIER gasoline, performance issues like rough idling or hesitation during acceleration can often be resolved.”

For testing purposes, AAA selected TOP TIER and non-TOP TIER gasolines from a southern Texas market that represents the type of gasoline sold across the majority of the United States. To measure intake valve and combustion chamber deposits, AAA engaged the services of an independent International Standards Organization 17025 certified engine testing lab to perform an ASTM International standard test on fuels.

To evaluate consumer gasoline preferences, AAA contracted with a national research company to perform a telephone survey of 1,002 adults (18 years of age and older) living in the continental United States. Survey results are an accurate representation of the total continental U.S. population, 18 years of age and older, with a margin of error of +/- 3.1 percent at a 95 percent confidence level.

For additional information about fuel quality, including the full test report and fact sheet, visit NewsRoom.AAA.com.

As North America’s largest motoring and leisure travel organization, AAA provides more than 56 million members with travel, insurance, financial and automotive-related services. Since its founding in 1902, the not-for-profit, fully tax-paying AAA has been a leader and advocate for the safety and security of all travelers. Motorists can map a route, identify gas prices, find discounts, book a hotel and access AAA roadside assistance with the AAA Mobile app for iPhone, iPad and Android. Learn more at AAA.com/mobile. AAA clubs can be visited on the Internet at AAA.com.

Please Log in to join the conversation.

Last edit: by GregK.

Thoughts on fuel and fuel systems 26 Aug 2021 01:15 #5

  • Tracy Gallaway
  • Offline
  • Founder
  • Founder
  • Posts: 1881
  • Karma: 178
  • Thank you received: 564
Thanks, Greg, the link in your above post does work. The article confirms my idea that people just buy the cheapest gas they can, without thinking of the results. Over time, this is false economy.

Based on our opinions here, plus the independant study by the certified lab that AAA sponsored--the quality of gas we buy matters a lot.

This, then is another issue to be more aware of, indeed!
Tracy G.
Tracy Gallaway
Founder and Constant Aide to Gadgetman
Gadgetman Reno, NV
The following user(s) said Thank You: GregK

Please Log in to join the conversation.

Thoughts on fuel and fuel systems 27 Aug 2021 20:32 #6

  • kman
  • Offline
  • Adventurer
  • Adventurer
  • Posts: 59
  • Karma: 17
  • Thank you received: 70
What to believe on ethanol in gas?

10 Things You Should Know About Gasoline | The Family Handyman

Does premium gas have ethanol in it?

Why you don't actually want ethanol in your gas tank | Driving

Please Log in to join the conversation.

Thoughts on fuel and fuel systems 29 Aug 2021 12:03 #7

  • GregK
  • Offline
  • Friends of Gadgetman
  • Friends of Gadgetman
  • Posts: 1283
  • Karma: 114
  • Thank you received: 652

kman wrote: What to believe on ethanol in gas?

10 Things You Should Know About Gasoline | The Family Handyman

Does premium gas have ethanol in it?

Why you don't actually want ethanol in your gas tank | Driving

Please Log in to join the conversation.

Thoughts on fuel and fuel systems 02 Sep 2021 01:26 #8

  • Tracy Gallaway
  • Offline
  • Founder
  • Founder
  • Posts: 1881
  • Karma: 178
  • Thank you received: 564
My take on Ethanol in gas, is the refiners use it to add an Oxygenate to gasoline, and to help with Octane numbers.Oxygenated fuels help with pollution. Ethanol, has excellent Octane, but has less energy than gasoline, so there's the reason for worse mileage with Ethanol. Ethanol mixes with water, and can hold water in the fuel system. This can lead to corrosion.

So there are advantages for "them" with Ethanol in the gas, The advantage for "us" is lower cost per gallon, and possibly less tailpipe emissions..

I'm running Union 76 Mid-Grade in my Honda, and it likes it. It's running very smooth. Next tank will be Premium Union 76. I'm going to be avoiding the no name cheapo gas stations, and sticking to Top Tier gas.
Tracy G.
Tracy Gallaway
Founder and Constant Aide to Gadgetman
Gadgetman Reno, NV

Please Log in to join the conversation.

Thoughts on fuel and fuel systems 02 Sep 2021 08:39 #9

  • GregK
  • Offline
  • Friends of Gadgetman
  • Friends of Gadgetman
  • Posts: 1283
  • Karma: 114
  • Thank you received: 652

Tracy Gallaway wrote: My take on Ethanol in gas, is the refiners use it to add an Oxygenate to gasoline, and to help with Octane numbers.Oxygenated fuels help with pollution. Ethanol, has excellent Octane, but has less energy than gasoline, so there's the reason for worse mileage with Ethanol. Ethanol mixes with water, and can hold water in the fuel system. This can lead to corrosion.

So there are advantages for "them" with Ethanol in the gas, The advantage for "us" is lower cost per gallon, and possibly less tailpipe emissions..

I'm running Union 76 Mid-Grade in my Honda, and it likes it. It's running very smooth. Next tank will be Premium Union 76. I'm going to be avoiding the no name cheapo gas stations, and sticking to Top Tier gas.
Tracy G.

Tracy, are you seeing an increase in mileage? that's the real tell-tale.
people balk at the price of gasoline with less ethanol, until they see the numbers. If the price difference between premium and regular/midgrade doesn't get you the same % increase in mileage, then I agree that it's not justified. but if you meet or exceed that %age...and further, do better than gubmint mileage ratings, it's simply a no-brainer as far as I'm concerned. Sorry (not sorry) corn farmers...but the environmental people will applaud for less GHG emissions per mile or whatever the metric is that they use.
Personally, I've found that to be the case for my grooved and Snake Oiled daily driver. Folks following along at home may find that their mileage varies ;)
Greg Kusiak
Most Active Member
Audiophile

Please Log in to join the conversation.

Thoughts on fuel and fuel systems 05 Sep 2021 20:48 #10

  • Tracy Gallaway
  • Offline
  • Founder
  • Founder
  • Posts: 1881
  • Karma: 178
  • Thank you received: 564
I can not yet say if MPG has increased yet, as I drive 3 different cars now. However all 3 now have either mid grade or premium gas in their tanks now, AND some more home-made MPG Plus mix too. All 3 are running better, noticeably so. So, i CAN say that driveability HAS improved, esp. on Subie the '85 Subaru.

I'm hoping to do another Orange test run on the '01 Honda Accord-though I'm also hoping to replace the rear tires first. When I see measured results I'll post em here!

Tracy G.
Tracy Gallaway
Founder and Constant Aide to Gadgetman
Gadgetman Reno, NV

Please Log in to join the conversation.

  • Page:
  • 1
Powered by Kunena Forum