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TOPIC: how to groove this?!!

how to groove this?!! 24 Mar 2013 09:26 #1

  • aurelbatrinu2000
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Hi,

in the picture bellow is a TB from the most popular car in Romania, Dacia Logan. It was sold wery good all over the Europe also. To groove this car is one of my biggest ambitions. does anyone have an ideea what is the best way to cut the groove on this TB, beside the reverse cutting bit? This TB is made of aluminium in the throtle plate area and covered with heavy duty plastic. the engine side is the one which is mesured. The TB seats in vertical position having the air filter body on top and the engine on the bottom.



Thank you!

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how to groove this?!! 24 Mar 2013 17:49 #2

  • TacomaKarl
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The shape is similiar to that of the 1999 Hyundai Accent 1.5L 4cyl. that I own.

If you have the flex shaft for your Dremel/Dremel equivalent, you should have no problem getting inside to cut the groove.

I wouldn't use anything larger than the medium bit, I'm sure there are going to be spots that are thin enough to break thru. Find them and build those area's up with JB-Qwik or equivalent. (rough up the finish on the TB where you're going to build up)

measure inside and outside through the arc make sure you are not going to cut into the tps sensor or TP motor area.

As far as cutting, take your time, keep the bit and the TB cool so the plastic doesn't deform on you.

Good luck and welcome aboard,

Karl Fortner
Tacoma, Washington

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how to groove this?!! 25 Mar 2013 08:55 #3

  • Gadgetman
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With the depth of this throttle plate, it is going to require the longer bits that come with the Certified package. This set of bits includes 2@ of the bits you have (2" shank), and 2@ with 3" shanks to allow for these rare birds.

At least this configuration is rare in the USA.

And Karl, if you (or anyone else out there) is using the medium sized bit on vehicles, you are costing mileage. ALWAYS use the LARGEST BIT POSSIBLE. This is determined not by the thickness of the wall, but by the DEPTH of the throttle plate from the mounting surface.

PLEASE follow the instructions in the manual, gentlemen. It's the result of more than 1500 modifications over a four-year period. If you do not have a copy of the latest (February, 2013) then email me and I'll be sure to send you one.

Ron

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how to groove this?!! 26 Mar 2013 11:37 #4

  • GadgetmanCR
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Ron,

I looked in the instructions in the manual and didn't see anything about how to determine what bit size to use. Did I miss it? If not, it seems like something that should be included.

I've always done what Karl mentioned and based the bit size on the wall thickness, so this is new info for me and I hope you'll clarify this method of determining bit size, and why the wall thickness isn't used. When you say, the depth of the throttle plate from the mounting surface, are you talking about the distance from the throttle plate (from it's axle for instance) to the end of the TB where it mounts to the intake manifold? If so, in Dacia's case, that distance is much greater than on the TB's of most US cars, and you're saying that calls for a large bit. What about US cars that have throttle plates much closer to the mounting surface? Don't many of them also call for large bits?

Why is that distance the determining factor for bit size instead of the thickness of the walls? If we have a thin walled TB, but with a depth like Dacia's, even if we reinforce the thin walls with epoxy, if we cut through the majority of the wall and into the epoxy, doesn't it create a greater risk of a fractured TB later as Karl has indicated before?

I'm confused.

Thanks,
Jonathan

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how to groove this?!! 26 Mar 2013 13:26 #5

  • aurelbatrinu2000
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Hi Jonathan,

My belive is that the groove has it's effect as long as vertical axis of the TP is "falling" into it. as bigger groove you have as longer the effect will be, covering a wider range of engine running conditions. when you are accelerating hard the TP vertical axis is comming out of the groove, because the TP will close to horizontal position. the picture bellow is that I think the detph ot the TP means.







All the Best! Aurel

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Last edit: by aurelbatrinu2000.

how to groove this?!! 26 Mar 2013 19:45 #6

  • Gadgetman
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Come on, guys.

"Always use the LARGEST BIT POSSIBLE for the application" is all through the documentation (unless I misremember what I wrote!). This is determined NOT by the thickness of the wall (SHAME on you, Karl!) but by the DEPTH of the throttle plate from the mounting surface. I cut through the walls on fully half the throttle bodies I do, but I have the highest success rate with The Groove on the planet.

Perhaps you should check with me before you vary from what the manual tells you, no matter WHO is telling you different.

ALL vehicles (non-carbureted) will get the large bit. Carbs will generally use the medium.

Keep the angle at 15-20 degrees, and cut the FULL DEPTH the bit will allow. If you do this, you are guaranteed to see positive results, every time.

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how to groove this?!! 26 Mar 2013 23:33 #7

  • GadgetmanCR
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Ron,

I know you've told me to use the largest bit possible, and I do. But I've always used the wall thickness at the area the groove will be cut to figure that out. I still don't understand what you mean by telling us to use the depth of the throttle plate from the mounting surface to determine the bit size. How does that work?

When you say you cut through the walls on fully half the throttle bodies you do, do you mean you cut through in just small spots, or do you cut through for half of your groove or so?

I'm not making this up, there really isn't a single comment in either the Gadgetman Groove Training Manual or the Operations Manual about how to select bit size.

Is it now official that we're back to the 15-20 degree angle that the throttle plate is typically at, rather than the 22.5-30 degree angle that was recommended for a while?

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how to groove this?!! 26 Mar 2013 23:37 #8

  • GadgetmanCR
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Thanks Aurel. That's the first theory I've seen about why a larger groove works better. It makes sense to me.

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how to groove this?!! 27 Mar 2013 07:23 #9

  • dan
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What rons saying is if there`s room from butterfly to edge of throttlebody intake side. You will run into some, there`s a few with very little room to intake. keep grooving. quadrajets are a good example of carbs that have little to no room.

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how to groove this?!! 27 Mar 2013 07:40 #10

  • Gadgetman
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First, as the throttle plate is always at an angle, it is seldom at 15 degrees. Usually it is more like 5-10. You cannot use the throttle plate angle at all.

The SHAPE is what creates the aerodynamics. Therefore, it must be correct. The larger the groove (I am sure there are limits) the more profound the effects. When you use a bit that is too small, you get diminished effects.

If the casting of the throttle assembly is too thin, that does not change the science behind The Groove. If it's too thin, it's too thin. Make it thicker.



There is no telling where, how often or to what extent you will cut through a wall until you've done them a few times. Then, you should ALWYAYS check The Groove with a penlight to make sure you didn't accidentally miss a spot.

If you miss a hole, it will cause problems. When you have problems post-Groove, always check your work. After 1600 mods, I still check my work when an engine has issues unless I KNOW what's causing it.

I must apologize. I must remember that what I see as so simple is not so simple for many.

This will be covered in the new video as well as in an updated manual.

Ron

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how to groove this?!! 27 Mar 2013 17:06 #11

  • GadgetmanCR
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Thanks guys, I got it! So unless the large bit won't fit in that space, always use it.

But what about the wall thickness. Do you even take that into account? If the large bit will fit, but it's going to cut through say 1/2 or more of the distance of the groove, do you still just fatten up the wall and use that bit? Has anyone ever had a TB fracture as Karl suggested might be possible if a majority of it had been cut through? (sorry Karl, I'm not trying to get you in more hot water, I just want to learn as much as possible while this topic is still active).

Is it confirmed then that 15-20 degrees is now the goal, not 22.5-30?

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how to groove this?!! 27 Mar 2013 17:17 #12

  • dan
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yes confirmed, and Ive not seen any throttlebodys that didnt have enough meat to keep it together,Ron and Aaron have done even more and they havent had any issues with it either.

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