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TOPIC: Groove done to a Dacia Sandero TB

Groove done to a Dacia Sandero TB 08 Jul 2013 13:15 #1

  • aurelbatrinu2000
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Hello everyone,

Two days ago I manage to groove a Dacia Sandero TB. It was not easy because of the depth of the TB and because the materials used in building it. The TP area is made of aluminum and the rest of the stuff is made of plastic. I was not able to use the largest bit ( sorry Ron) is just not long enough. So I used the intermediate bit. The Tb was easy to be removed being squeezed between the air filter casing and the engine. The PCV valve is placed on this car model inside a hose and it has the suction from the same point as the crank case breather. So I just plugged the PVC in closed position, no rerouting being necessary. There is an image of the arrangement taken from the car’s service manual.



After reinstalling the grooved TB and ECU reconditioning I connected the OBDII reader via Bluetooth to my tablet. What I wanted to see was an increase of the manifold vacuum. Two day before cutting the groove, I recorded data coming from ECU using the Torque software installed on the tablet. In this way I had a reference data base before and after de grooving.
Comparing the data before and after the grooving I got the fallowing conclusions :
• The manifold vacuum increased from a maximum of – 0.76 bar ( -21.8 inch Hg), reached only for one second, to -0.83 bar (-24.5 inch Hg). Before grooving the highest vacuum was achieve between 726 and 1080 RPM to a 18.43% opening of the TP. After the grooving, the maximum vacuum is achieved at a range of 2040 to 2500 RPM at the same 18.43% opening of the TP (the angles were the groove probably is). A good change, because the normal driving RPM range of this engine is 1950 to 2500.
• Despite the fact that the increase of the vacuum was not very high, the car exhaust started, immediately after first stage of ECU reconditioning, to smell like water vapors. The torque of the engine increased and, according with the ECU, the fuel efficiency increased with 21% , this value being to be confirmed after few hundred of Km of driving.

There is one more thing I have to do: to resize the idle air passage because the vacuum is considerable smaller when the air conditioning is started (please correct me if I am wrong).
For the time being, I am satisfied of the results.
I really want this project to end up very good because there are approximate 2000 car of this model in my town only, and few hundred of thousand nation wide.


All the best , Aurel!



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Last edit: by ron.

Groove done to a Dacia Sandero TB 09 Jul 2013 23:26 #2

  • Tracy Gallaway
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Bravo, Aurel!! :woohoo:

You nailed down Very valuable data here of a successful Groove job! By documenting the Manifold vacuum in operation in Before/After fashion, and Importantly--the RPM range of the vacuum peak, you have given Critical Proof of how the Groove can improve an engine.

Vacuum peak shifted from idle range to middle of engine operation RPM. Freind, this is Magic, except it's Reality :lol: Physical Alchemy for this engine. I can't over-stress how big this is.

Your data explains all the benefits the Groove gave this engine and car. It makes me Re-realize just how important Manifold Vacuum really is. This Post is Reference Material. Seriously.

Aurel, you just gave us all PROOF how the Groove helps an engine. I hope others will grasp this.

Anything else you can do to improve further how this car runs will be gravy...I encourage you to aggressively reach out to this car owner market in your country. See if you can wring any more out of this, you will have a formula. Shoot for a 25% or bigger total MPG gain, if you can. Obviously the torque increase and cleaner exhaust are there now.

You can see about restricting the IAC bypass airflow some--but I wouldn't go too restrictive there, I bet A/C really loads this little motor down. I don't remember if you have done anything for Ignition and spark plugs, I'd look into those if you haven't, perhaps Brisk has a trick plug for this engine? No sign of oil in the breather hose?

In conclusion you have done this engine, yourself, and all who read this who understand engine dynamics a real favor. I believe you have the makings for a real formula for this type engine/car, I heartily encourage you to finish the "formula" then apply it to as many of these cars as you can!!

Rock'N'Roll, Aurel, Thank you!

Tracy G
Tracy Gallaway
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Gadgetman Reno, NV

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Groove done to a Dacia Sandero TB 10 Jul 2013 09:14 #3

  • ron
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Aurel, you have a gift!

Much like our beloved Karl Fortner (our Gadgetman Tacoma) you have a passion for facts and (more importantly) you have the ability to relate your discoveries in the written word.

This brings me to my request.

Would you care to do a complete write-up on what you found in applying The Groove? If so, I will see to it that it gets out so others can see what happens!

Oh, yeah, a video would be a GREAT thing to have!

Great work, Aurel! You make me feel like a proud papa!

Ron

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Groove done to a Dacia Sandero TB 11 Jul 2013 04:25 #4

  • aurelbatrinu2000
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Hi Tracy,

I appreciate your enthusiasm and I thank you for you most generous words but I feel that I do not deserve them. I will explain:
• The only thing I did is to make a small experiment, reading vacuum value in the air manifold before and after the groove was done. Only one time! For me as an engineer this proofs nothing yet, in my opinion. In order to declare that we discover something else great about the groove, this experiment must be done over and over again, for 30 to 50 times maybe, on the same type of the engine and on other types of the engines. If we see that the same effect is present in the majority of the cases than we have a good reason to think that doing a groove on an engine has the result in mentioned in my previous post.
• The equipment which I used is 10 $ wharf of value. In order to present any results of a test or experiment to a whole world we need to use calibrated and certified devices that are generating professional data. Any engine specialist will smile if I would tell him that I rely my believes on a 5$ ECU adapter connected to a 5$ software which is running on a devices that was build to serve as a multimedia gadget :).
The experiment I have done and the conclusion I extracted from it are for me only an extra positive sign, together will the smell of the exhaust and the increase in torque, that the groove I cut most probably will do his job. At least until more data will be gathered.

Hopping that I do not upset you I wish you a good day! And I am also try to Rock’N’Roll every day!

Aurel

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Groove done to a Dacia Sandero TB 11 Jul 2013 04:39 #5

  • aurelbatrinu2000
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Hi Ron,

I thank you for the word of appreciation . I will try to put in writing the whole gooving experience, from the moment I watch your video received from Tesla web site, to the present day. the only thing I ask is to give me some time because now I am at last at home during summer and I am willing to use as much as time I can enjoying company of my family on the beaches and mountain peeks.

All the best , Aurel!

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Groove done to a Dacia Sandero TB 11 Jul 2013 16:17 #6

  • Tracy Gallaway
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Yes of course you are Right, Aurel.

BUT- however quickly, however breifly the "door" opened and shut giving a look into the world of the manifold vac. level--even with test equipment a qualified Schooled Certified Engineer would sneer at--

The proof was there. What do you think Galileo might have said when he pointed his first crude telescope at the stars? And the men of Knowledge and Authority of his day refuesd to even look? Where would NASA be if not for him? NASA wouldn't BE.

You gave valuable info Aurel! :cheer:

And got great real-world results too.

BTW, I looked at your pics again and realized something I missed. Look at the overall shape of this big black TB--it's a venturi or very similar, see how it tapers from the orange air duct seal down to the throttle plate area? The airflow speeds up and is at higher velocity at the plate and Groove! I bet this helps Quite a lot on this one. Harder to Groove, but worth the results.
does anyone else see the potential of this TB shape? I'm gonnna watch for this kind of shape.

Tracy G
Tracy Gallaway
Carburetor Coach
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Gadgetman Reno, NV

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Last edit: by Tracy Gallaway. Reason: more info

Groove done to a Dacia Sandero TB 03 Aug 2013 05:22 #7

  • aurelbatrinu2000
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Hi!

two weeks ago I manage to regroove the TB with the biggest bit. the results: the TB is making a sound like the engine is turbo charged. this is happening at 2000 rpm when the TP is over the groove. I checked that. not a problem for my brother in low which is the owner of the car. the car is more agile than with the middle groove, going faster up in the rpm, better torque. the vacuum went down a little bit from -25 inHG to -23.5 inHg but the max value is still around 2000 rpm which is great.
Fuel consumption went down with 2 liters/100km in town, comparing with the manufacturer data (from 24,7 mpg to 31.3mpg). this is an 23% increase in efficiency.I am expecting even better result because the air temperature here was very high with high humidity and this engine is sensitive to that. I owned a car like that for seven years and I know it behaves best in 20 C temperature.
I still have to improve my knowledge about the engine sensors but I was paying attention to the O2 sensors. O2X1 is indicating 0.7-0.8V and the O2X2 in indicating 0.4 most of the time. Are this good reading or the o2x2 sensor should be checked?
one more thing: after the groove is applied to an engine the way you are driving the car should be changed. less foot on the gas pedal will give the same dynamic parameters of the car but the max results on fuel efficiency. I had to tell this to my father and my brother in law because they were very excited about the increase in torque of the engine and they were driving like race drivers :).
All the best!
Aurel

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Groove done to a Dacia Sandero TB 07 Aug 2013 15:14 #8

  • Tracy Gallaway
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Aurel this Groove job is Excellent! You're right about driving habits, give someone more Power and they are gonna use it :evil: takes more discipline to have more power and only use it wisely!

On O2 Sensors there is a handy saying-"Lean is Low" .5 Volts is the center of range of standard O2 sensors. The full range is zero to one volt, so half a volt is the middle of range, a value below .5V is showing higher oxygen, "lean" and over .5 V is lower oxygen, "rich". IF first O2 value you show is upstream sensor then it is telling ECU to cut back on fuel, THAT is good! ;) Second value if its downstream O2 past cat. converter, I think that means its telling ECU that cat. converter is doing its job..

So see, just remember the saying "Lean is Low" to help decode what O2 values mean to ECU. Other main thing is "cross-counts" meaning how often the O2 voltage output value crosses above and below .5V. If the voltage reading stays constant for seconds in a row then it can mean the O2 sensor is slow, that happens when they get old hi-mileage. OF course engine has to be warmed-up and ECU in closed Loop to get valid O2 #'s

I think that you have refined the "formula" for this engine and car even more. If you can get similar results on a few more of these, and if they are common car there, well you know what THAT means, if you want to apply it :woohoo: Just curious is the new sound like a whistling sound?

Man, if it was me I'd be itching to do exactly same technique again on a few more of these cars, I'd be rubbing my hands together looking for more of these cars...

Rock and Roll hootchy-Koo, Aurel :lol: ;)

Tracy G
Tracy Gallaway
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Gadgetman Reno, NV

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Groove done to a Dacia Sandero TB 12 Aug 2013 11:58 #9

  • ron
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One side note, Aurel. The reason the vac decreases when the A/C is activated is the action of the Idle Air Controls. It adds air to offset the load presented by the compressor.

Post-Groove, you will find the engine will handle the loads much better and will require a LOT less air to compensate.

Try that, as it is sure to give you another little boost in mileage.

Great work!

Ron
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