TOPIC: Interested in the groove

Hi everyone! I'm Nate.

I have been lurking around for some time now, reading, watching and learning so I finally signed up.

I'm interested in the groove and the personal license, is it still available?

hi Nate this is Tracy G. Glad you got on here. Yes it's been very quiet lately, not having Ron w/ us has hurt activity here, but quite a few Gadgetmen are still around, we still have our individual and shared group knowledge. I do find it interesting that when I check here I'm often the only registered forum Member, yet I see a large # of visitors listed below sometimes over 100..? Assuming this isnt a glitch it says a lot of the interrest out there, you being one of those. This is still a timely tech to have what with recent pump prices...

Dan has a great deal of experience w/ the Groove, I have less, yet I've seen gains in power, MPG, and emissions reductions in some combo every time. The Groove is already highly Validated as a concept.

Unsure what's up w/ Collette at the moment, no luck in contacting her. I do hope she is OK. Last I spoke w/ her she still had PL bits and training materials.

You could tell us what vehicles you have to start your Groove experience with, year, make, model, engine, and I'm sure Dan and others can chime in about them. At the least Dan or myself (or possibly other Certified Gadgetmen) can offer to do the Groove for you while we sort out developments. I'm in Reno Nevada my phone is 775-544-7692 if no ans. leave a mess I'll call back. Where are you located, Nate?

In any case, Nate Welcome to GadgetmenLand!

Tracy G

Hi guys thanks for the responses.

I have known about the groove for about 3 years now but when I first learned about the groove I wasn't in the situation to act on it until now.

I have a 1998 Toyota Camry with the 4 cylinder 2.2L 5S-FE engine. The plugs have been gapped, PCV rerouted and some of the vacuum systems have been tested with the vacuum pump.

The throttle body on this car has an actuator that keeps the throttle plate open when the engine is not running. A vacuum line leads to this actuator and allows the throttle plate to close completely when a vacuum is applied. I did notice a black carbon area similar to what I have seen in the video on drive by wire throttle bodies.

With the throttle body still mounted to the intake manifold and opening the throttle plate, I noticed a small hole (air pathway?) that looks like it's close to where the groove might be placed. It's near the throttle plate shaft.

I also have the small 800watt 2 cycle harbor freight generator.

Tracy have you posted on another forum as subadude?

I'm in Connecticut.

Thanks for the warm welcomes,
Nate

Hey Nate,
Yes Tracy is Subadude. You must be doing a lot of searching about fuel saving technologies to have noticed that. That forum is very extensive with thousands of posts and many topics so to find Tracys posts there was a stroke of luck or/or very intensive reading and searching. Tracy steered me to that site and topic hoping to help me with my lack of success on my truck with my modification efforts.

Tracy is very helpful and knowledgeable along with Dan so if you need answers, these two are the ones to ask.
Tracy steered me on to that site and have tried that cracking system with no success. Tried the system a dozen different ways with different liquids and different hookups between the vac post(pulling gas) and PCV line(pushing gas) with no results. Even have two coils, one on the exhaust manifold and one on the exhaust pipe. But dont let that discourage you, the groove and the other system work as you have noticed for most who try it. My truck is the black sheep of this forum and nothing has worked to get HP/torque and MPG gains yet. Either it has a vacuum leak nobody can find or the ECU is stopping any improvements.
Had a head gasket changed a few months ago(at 270k miles) and the mechanic stated the engine(pistons?)were very clean and had great compression(165-175lbs). Thought I had a new engine installed a few years back and was dumbfounded to find that it was the original engine. I can only guess it was because of two other items(RVS and the Mystifyer) that this site(Ron and Tracy) steered me on to. The engine is in great shape for have now 280k miles according to the mechanics observation but not getting the MPG or HP/torque gains that everyone else is getting. Hoping still one day that will change.
The HCS system that Tracy is commenting on in another forum on has not been shared yet.
I am guessing because Tracy likes to tinker with this and is trying to get the best possible set up on this system so when its presented here, its constructed the best way he knows how to prevent us from having to constantly improve the system. Plus his beast has been in the shop for some TLC.
Karl

Hi Karl
I think you are talking about a different forum, hehe. Can you send a link to that one? Ron always said in his videos to do research.

I have read soo many great posts here. I learned some things from your truck thread including needing to pump many many times to test the brake booster.

On another note, UPS just showed up with my dremel.

Have you done any investigation into if the ECU is stopping the gains?

Hi Nate,

Did I do an oooopsie?
In all fairness to Tracy, I have to let him give you the link. He gave it to me and didnt post it here so I am guessing there is a good reason. Thinking it may be that he is working the kinks out of this system he discovered and will share it as soon as he does. He should be on later since he is prompt at replying and very helpful. Since he gave it to me and didnt post it here, guessing he did it in sympathy and feeling sorry for the failure of all the effort to my truck.
Hope you understand, dont want to betray his confidence and Im pretty sure he will give you the site anyway as soon as he replies to you.
As regards to the Dremel, just be sure to follow the teaching Ron put on his DVD. I kinda rushed the cut and "smoothed" out the groove after cutting to make it clean and in doing so I removed enough so now the bit does not site tight in the groove. Tracy said its better to do a rough cut and have a tight fit than what I did. Had to fill it in and cut again, more than double the work for my doing it my way so it would look clean. Also make sure to protect that bit with oil/water, whatever the experts here recommend. We may not be able to get more bits in the future the way things are sounding not to mention the $500 cost if we can.
As far as the ECU, it sounds like that may be my next step. There is a place on line that sells override chips for $69 and I may have to eventually go that route to eliminate what is wrong with my many efforts producing no noticeable results.
Karl

Oopsie… no worries about the link guys. I was talking about a post on about the ignition system.

I am aware of the repetition on cutting the groove properly and I look forward to more of it

I do understand the importance of taking care of the bits and keeping them cool, it weighed in heavily on my choice of dremel. I went with the Dremel 9100 instead of the 4100/4200.

When you get around to messing with the ECU, I'm interested in seeing what chip/device you decide to go with.

Hi Nate and Karl, yes I'm subadude on the HCS thread at the Fuelsaver.org site. I have also used this handle in the Plasma Ignition thread over at Aaron Murakami's site, but the link to that escapes me now, haven't been there since last summer. I did post a lot here on the Plasma Ignition mod w/ pics and some how-to-do-it's I figured out. It's in the Index section here. It's a very strong ignition mod to do. Search for Murakami Plasma Jet Ignition, you will find Aaron's site where he sells the info necessary and complete explnations of what it is and how it works. I got it to work- and I'm no electronics guy. Be warned- this puts out a wallop of a spark, been bit twice by accident- you would not forget it!

The other place I'm subadude is here: BTW, the HCS forum is fairly strict about staying on subject, so I advise those interested who join there to stay on topic of HCS!

After learning of Dan Merrick's celebrated vapor tube mod, and mercilessly picking Dan's brain (thanks Dan! ) then realizing I could not partake of it w/ my carbureted engines I went searching and found HCS. Very interesting concept and simple, introduced in Indonesia over 4 years ago, designed so those of modest means could use it, as a DIY idea. Versatile too, been used on diesels, motorbikes, generators,cars, lotsa stuff. I am about to reconfigure it on the Subie, and will post pics on the HCS thread when I do soon.
Dan's vapor tube ( my name for it, I also call it the Pipeline!, there's an idea for ya Dan, remember the old sufer song?) HCS, and similar ideas are I believe born or have roots of interest in the legendary and mysterious mystical high MPG Vapor Carbs of yore. I would be remiss in not mentioning Himac Research and Bruce McBurney, George Wisemanm of Eagle Research, and of course Charles Nelson Pogue and the famous Pogue Carburetor. Or HHO, GEET and inventor Paul Pantone, and Dennis Lee's HAFC and PICC. One can read, research, wander about, think and wonder of all those of current and past fame regarding this seemingly ever-distant and receding Mirage of a miracle in fuel economy. But today we have what our dearly missed Ron Hatton has bestowed w/ the Groove, and Dan's tube and HCS to use.
But don't foget common Sense- if you really want high MPG, start w/ something made to do it, just my opinion, if you can.

OK so Nate- if you can post pic's of this Toyota's TB (throttle body) we can delve into it together. Did you get a Personal License from Collette, or are you lacking bits? If you do have your bits, I like to dip them in power steering fluid for cooling and lube. Some have had problems doing an oil dip if cutting into JB Weld or similar metal epoxy, so water can work in that case. I'm glad you have been doing your research into the Groove!

Tracy G

I'll have to take a look at these other neat methods.

No bits yet, no contact at all.

Here are some pics I found on ebay awhile back.

Air Filter Side



Bottom - Vacuum actuator on the left (somewhat damaged)



Intake Manifold Side - Air Pathway



Air Filter Side again



IAC Removed


I was wondering about what fluid to use when cooling the bits…. makes sense..

Hello Nate, good pics, thanks!

OK first good news: I received an email from Collette earlier and await further communications from her, I let her know there is a new gadgetman who needs a PL (Personal Liscence), being you. She said she's been busy w/ some real estate dealings, so I'll be sure to let her know of you Nate.

OK your TB- looks pretty straightforward, the vacuum pot on the base is interesting. It's good the IAC (idle air control) slot dumps into the throttle shaft area. A clearer pic will help here but looks to me like it may be good to build up that gap that opens up over the bore wall between the bore and the IAC trench. This will force IAC air to enter only at the end of trench at the throttle shaft. Bit hard to judge the whole thing from the pic, a lot of black carbon distorts the view. I can't really tell which side of the butterfly disc is lower in the TB bore, Groove always goes on lower side. But it's cool this design directs IAC flow as it does, we often restrict and re-direct IAC airflow so it doesnt disrupt Groove generated "waveform".

You may also have already learned- we often do 2 mods in combo w/ the Groove: IAC restrict/re-route and PCV re-route. Because both IAC and the PCV system allow air to enter the intake man., air that is not going through the main throttle (and the Groove) and this extra air lowers manifold vacuum intensity, wheras the Groove acts to intensify man. vac. dynamics, plus generate beneficial turbulence, or a "waveform". Ron's training and other videos explain the basics of the Groove and how the engine uses gasoline. Only vaporised gas burns. 2 ways to vaporise gas: heat and air press. fluids will boil at lower temp, IF that fluid is at a lower air pressure. Temp- we can't increase engine temps without other problems- so Ron chose the ingenious pressure method to enhance vaporisation BEFORE ignition. This is why we have also harped so much about finding and fixing vacuum leaks, It's real important! There are other ways to heat gasoline of course without heating the whole engine. But those have not been discussed here much, and have their own issues.

Anyhow- there's my first comments, I will wait to hear from Collette, thanks again for the pics, it will be helpful to see clear pics of your TB when it's off, and it's real useful to photo-document your mods to post here it helps everyone so much!

Tracy G

Ill be able to get some better pics when the throttle body is off the car but is this the build up area you're talking about?

Yes Nate that's it exactly. I'd rough that area some, then put clear box shipping tape on business card or other that is inserted in bore held by closed throttle plate. Put taped over card so it acts as a form wall extending up against that slot, then fill w/ JB quick epoxy, but I'd leave the opening over throttle shaft. Maybe reduce the opening in size some- but it's usually good to still allow for some IAC flow to preserve high idle RPM at cold start and A/C operation. A straight shaft Dremel rasp bit is good for shaping JB Weld in this situation. Pull the card out when the epoxy is almost but not quite set. Clear box tape will be like a non-stick surface against epoxy. Can use fine sandpaper to smooth inner bore wall after epoxy is fully set.

I found it useful as newbie to practice Grooving on a couple junk TB's. Take it easy on your bits and cool w/ oil the bits do have a service life...

I just finally got Collette on the phone, but she was in a hurry said she would call back in an hour.

Tracy G