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TOPIC: Greetings from TN

Greetings from TN 13 Jan 2017 23:19 #1

  • Craig
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I am coming back to the site after about a 3-1/2 year break. I purchased the personal kit in the spring of 2013 with the dream of getting the best fuel economy out of my 99 F150 as I could. Unfortunately life wiped me out both personally and business wise. I'm now back on my feet looking again to get the most out of my old Fords.

I have a 99 F150 with a 4.6L with 320k. It burns about a quart of oil every 500 miles and is tired but sill consistently gets 14.5-15 MPG around town as this truck almost never leaves a 15 mile radius. I also just put on the road for the family vehicle a 99 Expedition with a 5.4L that has 275k on the truck. Put a used engine in this vehicle and haven't put enough miles on it to really know what the fuel economy will be but so far not impressed...

I've got 20 years automotive repair service with my ASE master status so I'm not new to working on vehicles :) Looking to get as much information as I can for me personally as well as maybe branching out at some point.

Looking forward to getting to study and experiment on my vehicles and hopefully learn something in the process and maybe be able to help others.

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Greetings from TN 14 Jan 2017 00:22 #2

  • GregK
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Brother, I feel your pain.
Now the good news:
Those Fords of yours, they're easy to groove and they respond Very Well. Lots of evidence to that effect on this forum if you look. The trouble is keeping your right foot off the gas afterwards to get maximum fuel efficiency, because they get fun fun fun to drive.
Take the time to get them done and let us know how it works out for you. (Ron won't pay any speeding tickets, btw) ;)
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Greetings from TN 14 Jan 2017 00:28 #3

  • Tracy Gallaway
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Welcome back TnCarM :woohoo: I'm very glad to see you in here. So, you got a PL kit back in 2013, have you Grooved anything yet? I have been here nearly 5 years, and I've had interaction in here with many folks. So excuse me, if we have covered ground before that I now forget.

In general the Fords like yours have always responded well to the Groove. I've Grooved several 4.6 and 5.4 Triton's, and two 6.8 Triton V10's All have been easy for me to Groove. The one I remember best was a V10 I did here in a 4WD Super Duty, a '99. We saw a 33% increase in MPG's, and that on a mountain road test w/ A/C on.

I've been through a rough patch or two myself, I had a business that ended badly 12 yrs. ago. There's an old saying--"what does not Kill you makes you Stronger".

I'll be very glad to have expertise like yours in this forum. We sometimes feel that we have to overcome the mindset of the Professionals in this field. To be so trained and Certified as yourself, and be able to see the value in what we do, speaks to an intelligent mind, IMHO.

So, fire away in any direction you desire--and Welcome back. We're glad you're here!! :lol: :cheer:

Tracy G
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Greetings from TN 14 Jan 2017 10:09 #4

  • Craig
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My brother and I grooved the throttle body on the 4.6L 3 years ago. I noticed a good throttle response increase but since I hadn't have to truck that long at that time I'm not really sure if it improved the fuel economy much. I also gapped the plugs at that time using Motorcraft factory plugs and had bypassed the PCV which I have replaced since I had the moisture issue on my oil cap I didn't like. I noticed that you all have gone to a double groove? I also have a spare throttle body so I'm going to work on improving the Expedition first.

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Greetings from TN 14 Jan 2017 19:03 #5

  • Tracy Gallaway
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Well, I do the double Groove, Sometimes. But not every time. It requires one of the reverse bits from the Certified Gasgetman bit set. Only a few of those type exist. There is another new idea though, and any Gadgetman can try it.

In the message thread on the GM 4.3 Vortec Groove jobs in the forum right now:



scroll down to see the pics Juan Reyes, a new Gadgetman, posted of his vortec 4.3L V6 TB. Juan started this thread, and then Victor M, in Alaska, jumped into it with HIS Grooved TB, the same kind. so it's actually 2 different TB's and guys in that thread. Juan did a stellar job with his TB, probably the best looking Groove job I've seen yet. Anyway, look at the small round "dimples" he cut into the bore wall. This idea is the principle of the Dimples as found on golf balls.

Juan is real happy w/ his results on his 4.3L Vortec. these shallow dimples are done w/ a small ball cutter, Dremel has a few different sizes of 'em. they are cheap. (I wouldn't try making them w/ a Gadgetman bit, it won't work!) Anyway, this is new and real Experimental now.

Juan sent me some info re: research being done in some high level Machine shop somewhere. Doing dimple cuts all over inside cylinder head ports. It was unintelligible, in Spanish I think. The visuals I got seeing the research website, plus others about golf balls, leads me to the theory that involves altering airflow characteristics. It leads me to think that these dimples, will cause an increase in air density along the boundary flow area in the TB. The air that is "sticking" to the bore walls. The increase in density is from tiny vortices that form in and close to the dimples as air passes over. Now, I'm still groping to understand this. My theory is that the boundary layer may become "thicker" at certain air speeds, or flow rates. Dynamic, in other words. I think there may be two possibilities here:

The denser boundary layer air, may increase the density and strength of the vortices inside the Groove cavity. By making the boundary layer air that spills into the upstream edge denser. And/or- the boundary layer air, IF that layer becomes more prominent, extending out further into the inside diameter of the bore. Meaning- if that boundary layer gets "thicker" relative to the undisturbed flow inboard of it...it just might, act as a dynamic restriction. IF I'm right here, and it works like I Think, it might act to make the inner air, the air inboard of that boundary layer, speed up due to dynamic restriction. That in turn, may help improve airflow into the intake manifold, and improve cylinder filling, at lower intake valve lifts. By increasing airflow Velocity, in the air inboard of this boundary layer. It's like having a TB bore that changes I.D.

OR- I'm wrong. :blush: Part of my thinking here, comes from experiments and research done years ago by Mike Holler, who Ron was visiting in 2012. Mike is a real guru. He was doing custom mods of cylinder heads and a lot of fancy port work, using a flow bench. His work, involved making certain cuts in the intake ports, to cause this dynamic boundary layer flow like I'm speaking of. His cuts were parallel lines in appearance in a special orientation. I know not quite enough to be dangerous, and have some imagination.

No one I'm aware of has yet researched using these dimple cuts as before/after. But, go look for stuff that explains what the dimples on a golfball are there for. They create a high pressure zone around the golfball as it flies thru the air. Acting to decrease drag, making the air flow around the golfball better. They are a well proven idea, you would not see 'em on golfballs otherwise. The dimples cause an increase in pressure in a thin boundary layer that sticks to the golfball's surface, as it flies.

My point is-- if there is merit in this idea, it's pretty easy to do, the Dremel cutters exist and are cheap. Juan Reyes did it, and he just may have opened the door to a new technique for us!

So, my hat is again off to Juan Reyes, who may be the smartest Gadgetman in years!! :ohmy: :woohoo:

Juan you get Free Parking here from now on!! ;) :P So,TnCarMan, you see, we've not been idle!

On the moisture in the crankcase in winter from the PCV mods-- I'm with you. I'm trying to think of a way to reduce/eliminate that without using manifold vacuum. A catch can or oil separator helps, but doesn't eliminate the moisture fully when using the PCV Re-route.

Tracy G
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Greetings from TN 17 Jan 2017 11:59 #6

  • GregK
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Boundary layer - You might have that backwards, or a bit sideways, TracyG. I believe the groove and the dimples break up the mass of air that's in the sticky boundary layer, turning it into something much more usable.
In the case of Vortex generators on aircraft wings, they lower the takeoff and stall speeds (stalling is when air stops flowing over a wing, causing a loss of lift, the force that opposes gravity - one of the big ones that keep the plane flying). it takes less energy to generate and maintain lift with the boundary layer on top of the wing roughed up into vortices.

Now extend that to our car engines:

if we get the air that's "sticking" to the intake tract moving (the boundary layer isn't really very active) both before and after the throttle plate, the engine sucks in closer to what the MAF sensor is telling it is there. Remember, the MAF sensor is the first place the computer determines how much gas it needs to pump in for the engine to make power: 14.7 "masses" of air for each "mass" of gasoline (that's a LOT of air, considering a gallon of gas weighs about 6 lbs...around 90 lbs of air!!!). air and fuel get mixed and smashed together and ignited and move the piston to turn the crank and move your car and you forward...and THEN the computer looks at the exhaust to see if it can do its job any better, and adjusts fuel delivery accordingly. Computers are stupid, remember: they just do what operators tell them to do based on what their programmers say they CAN do. If the exhaust is all right and the engine isn't pinging/knocking and is operating at the correct temperature, the computer updates itself and continues on. In our case, the computer goes "hey, there's less air than I thought based on what the TPS is telling me...I can cut back on injector pulse duration until the o2 sensors say I've got 14.7:1 happening because somehow I'm sending more fuel than I need right now, because everything else they told me to consider is right"
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Greetings from TN 17 Jan 2017 20:43 #7

  • Tracy Gallaway
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Yeah, Greg, it's the mental visualization of the effect those dimples have, that's challenging to me. I think it might be best to move discussion of the dimples to a new thread, so we don't totally hijack TnCarMan's thread here! :huh:

TnCarMan ( I want to say "tin car" with your handle! :P ) so besides maybe Grooving another TB, what do you think would be the best ways to attack the MPG issue on your Ford's? I've got ideas, but let's hear yours. :)

Tracy G
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Greetings from TN 17 Jan 2017 22:27 #8

  • GregK
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Quite correct, sir; however, to further the dimples convo, Here's a link to the thread that has a great YouTube video linked to it. From the side, the vortices get thrown up into the main airstream and might possibly enhance the mass of the air hitting the groove:



Imagine the diameter of the ball as the diameter of the intake prior to the TB, with the ball as the plate.

we should continue this part of the convo over there, as Tracy suggested, people...
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