TOPIC: 2002 Ford Explorer 4.6L V8 - no change after groov

Hey Greg and Ron, here's a question from Left Field (after a couple riccochet's)

Do your Ford's have Onstar or equivalent satellite receiver/transceiver aboard?

Also, what altitude are you at?

If they do, I'm suspicious.

Damn, my foil Hat is gettin' Crinkly, I need to fold up a new one..think I'll make the next one from 2 layers of the good stuff, shiny side out...

Catch my drift...?

Tracy G

Hey Guys, really appreciate all the help. At this point this is where the truck stands.

Before the groove truck got 15 city & 19 hwy mpg's.
1. Totally new exhaust system, with "OEM" Bosch o2's, new cats, and a high flow muffler.
2. PCV valve capped on TB and hose rerouted.
3. Cats are wrapped in heavy duty aluminum foil (soon to be heat wrap).
4. idle air control hole was increased to a 1/4" today (up from 11/64 because it idled at 800+, and that hole size was up from 1/8" because she wouldn't start at all) and it has thrown a code. Engine idols at 1000 rpm with a 1/4" hole... going to increase the size again in the morning. Code pointed to idle speed.
5. Today, according to truck gauges got 19 mpg hwy on a 60 mile round trip. That was normal mpg's before groove. So we are headed in the right direction.
6. New TB gasket when groove was installed.

Tracy, I'm in Missouri. No OnStar or equivalent... I do have a foil hat that I've wrapped around the ECU to block all unwanted signals from big brother!
Thanks again,
Greg

The problem with the fast idle is NOT in the IAC pathway, but in the operations of your IAC valve!

How could I have missed that (dummy di-oh)? Your IAC is not able to close off the air flow beyond what it was allowing before The Groove. Remove it, soak it overnight in a gasoline bath, rinse it with carb spray real good and THEN re-install it. Nine times out of ten this will correct the deficiency.

It's dirty!

If that does NOT clear the problem, then you will need to replace that valve.

Let us know, and put that opening back down in size. Increasing it only allows more air, which will cause even more of an increase in idle speed!

Ron

Thanks, Ron, I just slapped my forehead buddy! Of course...

Greg, thanks, got a great laugh from that! So I guess Tinfoil is now one of our tools...?
do watch the Cat temps w/ wrapping, infrared thermometer, don't want em to cook, I wonder what a target temp might be...Greg you might record temp's with this Cat Wrap Trick, if it works on fuel trim's you might pioneer a New Trick for us...?

And don't mention the Cat Wrap Trick to the checker at the store when ya buy another box o' Reynolds Wrap or she might call ASPCA...

Tracy G

Ok Guys, The IAC valve has been bathed in gas, new 1/8" hole applied to tin gasket and presto. She starts and runs good. Thank you Ron!!!

Aluminum foil cat wraps bring 2 points: (FYI - Alum foil melts at 1200 degrees.)
1. The Groove causes the engine to run more efficiently and cooler. Causing the cats to not reach temp so the foil wrap "should" not jeopardize them under normal operating conditions. PLEASE CORRECT ME IF WRONG!
CONCERN: Pulling a load out of o/d would run the rpm's close to 3k. I am concerned about that, what do you think?
2. Since the cats don't reach temp the post 02 will in turn signal for more fuel in order to reach temp...

I did take another reading of the cats with the infrared thermo but again could not seem to get a decent reading. Max reading with the rpm's set at about 2.75k, was in the high 5 hundreds and that was on the passenger side before the cat. How do I get a reading of them underload??
AND AGAIN I "think" the foil is heating up the post o2's just can't be sure with the method being used!!!!

If I were to purchase a better OBD11 scanner, would that give us enough info to conclude answers?

Do I need the Mapster? Do I need any other sensor controls...

Thank you, Greg

Hi Greg, glad to hear you cured the idle RPM issue! (thanks to Dr. Ron!)

For temps on cats-- clear a small area of foil off the cat's to shoot temps on. Foil will just reflect the laser off giving bad reading. Needs a dull dark surface to shoot. Crawl around under there till you find a good angle to shoot the temp gun on cats that you can repeat, clear a small patch an inch square or so. For under a load readings, find a stretch of road where ya can get load/rpm's up a ways then able to pull over quickly, where you can crawl down there Safely. We don't want ya gettin run over!! Like plotting a road route for the computer re-learn.

I'm gonna guess that w/ new cat's & exhaust it ought not get TOO hot down there. Might research but think I rember that cat's need 5-600 deg.F to even light off. Old ones can clog from carbon junk and even melt inside and that's not good. I did fix a Ford truck once that had engine fire from plugged cat that warped the straight 6 exhaust manifold into an arch--but was because some fool put Leaded gas in it! w/a good clean running engine excess temps ought not to be an issue esp w/ new stuff like you have. But-i'd monitor those temps awhile w/ the wrap from under different driving cond. just to be sure.

And BTW, I don't remember--what kinda shape are plugs//wires cap/rotor in? Ever check/re-gap the plugs? My experience is those parts just get ignored 'till they are Real Bad causing prob's. not sayin' that's you, Greg, and I don't remember if ya talked 'bout that already!

I'm the resident Ignition Fanatic, 'cause I have found gains there, and good Ignition sets a good foundation for all else.

Cheers!

Tracy G

Updating vehicle stats.

Could not get a reliable temperature reading on the foil wrap on the cats. The foil was on for about 1 full tank 300+ miles. It showed no signs of melting or ill affects. Took foil off and have seen no change in mpg or power. Vehicle is still running at the preset mpg's from the factory.

1. She is again struggling a little to idle but will idle with a little help?
2. Will the pcv valve reroute into the main air intake cause any gunk build up in the throttle body and or the Idle Control valve?
3. Charge motion control plates?!!

I'm at a loss?
Between work and the Family I don't have much time to figure all this out?!!?!@#$%^&*!

Concerned this engine is not compatible with the groove.
Greg

If it's still idleing a little rough (cold start) then you will need to open the IAC just a tad bit.

I must say that I'm baffled with this one, Greg! How about you send me the throttle body for an inspection?

Ron

Ron, is there a vacuum test or some other test that can show if the groove is working?

Is it possible that the ecu has been programmed to not allow the engine to be more efficient. For example - If any sensor reports increase beyond set specs a default code kicks in keeping vehicle at preset conditions?

Greg

Hi Greg,

I'm sorry to hear that you are experiencing issues and believe me, I've been keeping up with you on this one....I've just been hiding in the shadows.

I'm having very similar issues with a grove that I just did for a customer on Sunday. See post I just made here:

I don't have a direct answer as to why things aren't adding up. We know that these Fords can be tough to get gains out of and we all are aware of it. I believe that if you stick with it, you will get some gains (if nothing at all, you are polluting much less than before).

I'm going back to the customers home on Saturday, armed with my PC and ScanTool and I'm going to figure it out darnit...I'm guessing that the O2 Sensors are not reacting appropriately.

I'm also guessing that these vehicles are very good candidates for the MAPster!

Keep us updated,

Wayne, SC
Gadgetman Carolinas
352.507.5309 cellular

Greg the whole Groove thing is a process, not just a one-time mod. We like it to be a one-time gig, but so often it requires continued attention. Esp. on newer cars. The engineering and computer functions are so very controlling.

Many of us Groovy people believe as you suspect re: the ECM. IT is like a Nanny. You are SUPPOSED to Consume Fuel! And Life keeps ya so busy/distracted it's a battle to go out of your way just to learn about things like the Groove--MUCH more so to sucessfully implement it!

Check the hose re-route, pull the hose off where it connects at air duct. If ya see gunk, there's the answer. I've investigated this phenomena. Search here for Air Oil Separator, Ive gone way in depth about what to do about this.

Before/after checks: vacuum guage idle readings, scantool readings. And just plain how does it Run!!

Some Groove jobs are lunch w/ Bambi, others are Life With Godzilla!

You been a good soldier, Greg! Don't stop Marching!

Tracy G

Well, she runs good enough. Just pulled a 4000 pound load last Saturday 4 hour round trip, she did just fine with it - 11 mpg. The Foil test showed me she runs pretty cool since the melting point of aluminum foil is 1200 degrees as stated by Wikipedia... I did take the foil off before this trip.

OH!! How could I have left this out! At first start up she runs rich, I can really smell it when backing out of the garage but the smell goes away after warm up.

Air oil separator, Mapster & post 02 Sensors are probably in need of attention.

The journey continues!

Thanks for the boost guys, the summer days are longer but there is more to squeeze into them...
Greg