TOPIC: 2005 Magnum Whistle and mileage

I had my 2005 Magnum grooved in November, and have had no fuel economy improvements. Per instructions from The Groover, I've reset the computer, checked for utilities leaks, waited a couple of tanks, etc, all to no avail - still no improvements.

Today, following the example of another recent post for 0 increases, I dismantled the throttle body again, this time taking pictures - see attached.

I think I may have been incorrectly Grooved!

My limited understanding of Grooving led me to believe that the groove was placed next to the throttle body butterfly, on the exterior side - air entering from that side through butterfly's into intake (interior). That's how it "built up" the air wave before sending it into the intake.

As you can see from my photos, I've been Grooved on the interior side of the throttle body.

So, if, in fact, I was Grooved on the wrong side, it my throttle body toast? If I just had it regrooved correctly, wouldn't that leave an awfully thin ridge at the butterfly closed position?

Can my TB be repaired, or does it need to be replaced?

Could this explain why I'm getting this annoying whistle?

Thanks for any suggestions, comments, etc.

Harry

Hi Harry,

The groove is on the correct side and looks fairly clean.

In your third picture you show the TB installed and there is a metal tube that looks like it is going to the manifold just behind the TB.

If that is the line from your PCV valve, you need to redirect that line to the intake plenum on the intake side of the TB.

Where the tube connects on the manifold needs to be capped.

Your not getting any MPG improvements because the PCV line is acting as a big leak preventing the manifold from maintaining a vacuum level high enough to get the full effect from the groove.

If you can confirm that it is the PCV line, move the line from the manifold to the plenum side. The increased vacuum should cause the groove to develop a slight whistle.

A simple test would be to cap the tube and the manifold for a short time to confirm.

If you have an OBDII scanner to monitor the fuel trims before and after that will also be an indicator. The lower the numbers or more negative the numbers the better the efficiency.
Give it a shot and let us know what the happens.

Karl Fortner
Tacoma, Wa.

Actaully, the tube in the photo isn't the PCV. It's a copper (metal) tube coming from somewhere blow. The PCV valve is entering the manifold just behind that (closer to firewall).

When the Groove was first done, the PCV valve was capped. I uncapped it 2 weeks ago to see if there was any difference - none. I get the same performance with the PCV valve open or capped. Actaully, fuel economy slightly increased with it uncapped, but that could be the changes in fuel mix with the onset of summer.

I don't have a ODB scanner. As for moving "it" to the "other" side of the plenum, I don't know what that means - is the plenum the TB/butterfly? Do you mean make a hole in the black air tube attached to the TB and move it there?

As for "cap the manifold"? Wouldn't that mean no air entering the engine at all?

I may be able to borrow an ODBII scanner from Checker, but if everything else looks OK, then that would just confirm nothings changed, right?

Hi Harry that tube is egr. dan gadgetman mo.

Hi Harry,

The tube that is still connected, it would be good to know what it is being used for. An opening that big going to the manifold can make all the difference.

I'm wondering if they are not using that as a pre-heater from the exhaust, the foil covering would make me think, YES.

My suggestion was to disconnect that tube from the manifold and plug the opening that it goes to.

It either will or will not make a difference, so a short term test will not hurt anything.

Karl Fortner
Tacoma, Wa.

So, then the question becomes is it safe to plug the EGR (exhaust gas recirculation)? I'm not familiar enough with internal combustion engines to know if this would/could cause a back pressure problem (or, even if that's possible).

And, removing this from the system would mean I would never pass emissions, right?

Personally, I'd be leary of trying to disconnect and plug that, what with the pressures involved with the exhaust. It wouldn't be nice if whatever cap/plug I came up with fired into the engine compartment!

Could I just unplug the sensor it seems to be plugged into? I'll try that first for a quick drive to see if there's any immediate change.

Wikipedia - In internal combustion engines, exhaust gas recirculation (EGR) is a nitrogen oxide (NOx) emissions reduction technique used in petrol/gasoline and diesel engines.
Because NOx forms primarily when a mixture of nitrogen and oxygen is subjected to high temperature, the lower combustion chamber temperatures caused by EGR reduces the amount of NOx the combustion generates.

We know for a fact that the temperatures drop with the Gadgetman Groove, we also know from Ron's video's that the NOx numbers are reduced, in many cases to zero.

Ron's initial marketing of the Gadgetman Groove was a better running engine and Reduced emissions, the fact that with some manifold vacuum adjustment that efficiency extends to the mpg of the vehicle it does not negate the prior results.

All of Aron Cheek's reports indicate that the temperatures drop.

I would doubt very much that there is pressure behind the EGR gases, in fact, if you are going to unplug anything I would unplug what ever device is controlling the EGR gas flow.

Unplugging any sensors is going to throw a code.

disconnect it in the driveway, plug the port on the manifold, start the engine... see what comes out if anything...

Won't know unless you try it...

Karl Fortner
Tacoma, Wa.

Sorry - I misspoke. I meant disconnect the module where the EGR exits the block, not a sensor further down the line. Although, the check engine light did go on, so maybe that was a sensor!

I did that and ran a quick 25 mile test. Except for a Check Engine light, the wasn't any noticable difference in the MPG (digital) or performance.

I can't run it this way longer (for a better average/evaluation) because of the Check Engine light. It would be just my luck a critical CE code would be thrown while I was ignoring the light

I'll see if I can figure out some way to block that line. I don't know how I'd block the hole where it enters the manifold; the EGR has a 1/2 inch or so diamater pipe, and the manifold has an even larger hole.

Thanks again!

OK - status report.

I've put about 100 miles on since disconnecting/blocking the EGR, and it may have shown a slight increase - .5 to 1 mpg. Again, short distance, so "actual" changes may be higher or lower, especially on highway travel.

However, I'm now getting a constant Check Engine light - P0401, P0403, P0406, and P2305. The P04* codes are all related to the EGR. Most indicative is the P0401 - insufficient airflow through EGR.

The P2305 is insufficient ionization on number 2 coil. That's spark plug related, and I'm not too worried about this one right now (I think it's a code thrown while testing something, and not a constant issue).

But, I digress.

Since I get a code if I disconnect or block the EGR to eliminate its vacuum loss, it's apparent I can't do that without running with constant Check Engine light - not good for a variety of reasons. Does this mean the only gains I can get from Grooving must be those (actually, none) with the EGR in the system?

I'm at a loss of what else to check or try.

Thanks again!
Harry

Hi Harry,

First of all you need to get back to the basics. We do not recommend ever capping the EGR system or unplugging it. So get the EGR system back to normal.

Are there any other things you changed since the Groove? If so, put them back to normal.

Next, place a cap on the intake where the PCV line was connected.

Third, disconnect the positive cable from you battery, attach the cable to engine ground and turn on the key to the run position. Leave it this way for at least 15 minutes. This will reset your ECU and erase all the things that have happened out the the computer memory. After at least 15 minutes, reattach the positive to the battery (after you have turned of the key).

Now do your mileage tests. Make sure you use the actual miles driven divided by the gallons of fuel used as mentioned here in the forums. Run a couple tanks through and report the results back to us here on this forum. If you have a way to get the fuel trim measurements, report them here.

Do not change anything while you are doing the tests. If you haven't already, check every line for a vaccum leak.

If you have any questions, give me a call. Look forward to hearing the results.

I must have misunderstood earlier posts (#5 and #7) - didn't they say to plug it?

I've already plugged the PCV valve and done the battery reset - the results are zero improvements, if not a slight drop, in MPG. That's been consistent after 4 months of driving.

Earlier posts led to the belief (at least mine) that the vacuum loss from the EGR tube may be the issue - closing the PCV valve off doesn't make much of a difference if the EGR is creating a vacuum leak.

I've also checked all the vacuum lines I can find for leaks - none that I can find. I'm still trying to figure out how to do a smoke test, but I've done the carb cleaner (?) test over the intake with no change in idle.

The only "issue" I've found so far, with the help of earlier posts in this thread, is the EGR pipe.

I've made it a point to absolutely nothing to the engine (except air filters, etc) while trying to diagnose the lack of improvement (since November 2011). I'm planning on trying the spark plug gap mod later, but not until I've figured on the Groove or had it removed.

Thanks!
Harry

I was told to plug the PCV valve, not redirect it. Is it better to redirect it, or is plugging the way to go?

I'd hate to redirect it (I assume it would have to go here) to the atmosphere side of the throttle body since some oil spray goes through mine as well as gasses.

Unless there is somewhere else it's supposed to be redirected to?