TOPIC: The Basics of Installing a Groovy Throttle Body

I just finished something that was long overdue.

Take a look and you can answer anyone's question about what to do...

Thanks Ron. That definitely points customers in the right direction!

TracyG Gadgetman Reno

Ah thanks, my learning experience is going through the roof here lol!
The information concerning the 'brake booster RPM test' really shed some new light on the matter.
I thought I was all fine & dandy with mine since my brake booster hose held well over 20inches of vacuum (according to the MightyVac8000 hand pump). But when I followed the steps laid out in the above file: 'Mail In Mod Info Sheet PDF.pdf' I realized right away that I have a problem after all.

At 'warmed up' idle my RPM is ~700
With brakes pressed to the floor, ~600
Upon releasing the brakes, RPM spikes up ~1500, then quickly drop back to ~700
This scenario = faulty brake booster/master cylinder vacuum!

Though it's an unpleasant surprise, at least I know what I must do. Replacement

There may also be an issue with the one-way valve in the line, Jason.

Perform another test. This time, remove the line and plug right into the booster with your hand pump. This will remove all doubt.

I hope it's in the line and not the booster!

Ok, I just got back in from working outside in 30°F weather, nice cool fresh air & sunny though. I'm determined to get this whole ordeal solved, not much will stop me.

I finished performing the test per your instructions Ron, and then some.
Here's my results:

With the Hose totally removed from the Brake Booster as well as from the Intake Manifold, I connected the MightyVac vacuum pump line directly into the Brake Booster. I then capped off the Intake Manifold Port which accepted the other end of the Brake Booster Hose so I wouldn't have a vacuum leak once engine was on!

Just for the fun of it, I began vacuum pumping the Booster to see what it could hold. After what seemed to be about 1,000 pumps(not joking)I finally gave up when the vacuum gauge read ~20.5 in.

Anyways, with the MightyVac still inserted, I then started the engine and left it idling.
I pressed the brakes down as hard I could(they were extremely stiff!)
I got pretty much the same results as before: the RPM dropped a bit when brake pedal was pressed down(also noticed the vacuum drops), upon letting off the brakes, there was a spike up in RPM and then quickly dropped back to normal again.

The difference in RPM variations were not as extreme as before. I'm assuming it's because I could NOT put the brake pedal down the whole way to the floor as I could before due to fear of damaging something lol.

Other vacuum tests I performed:
- Brake Booster Hose itself. It held well above 20in.
- very last line(from the intake manifolds point of view) of the Air Conditioning. Held well above 20in.

Some other interesting things I noted as well:
RPM drop down ~500 lower when I turn on the interior fan w/ temp set to cold. With heater on, RPM rise a bit.
RPM drop down a bit when ever I rotate the Steering Wheel.
Is all this normal? Or are these yet more problems?!

Either way, it seems obvious at this point that I need to replace the Booster Assembly and Master Cylinder. Which is no surprise to me as I had complete brake failure not all that long ago in which I was leaking fluid out of rusty brake lines.

Thanks again for your continuing support Ron. It is Very Well Appreciated!

It would appear there is something strange going on with your engine, amigo!

The drop in RPM's seem related to the electrical system rather than the vac. With a drop in power available, that will cause a drop in speed with the rotating of the steering wheel, but with the brakes, the only connection is through the vacuum system.

That is, if you fail to consider the drain on your power by the brake lights. The strain on the electrical system is notable. I would not worry about your booster, it appears to be fine. If it held 20, it most certainly is. Unless it's leaking when depressed, but that is unlikely.

So, turn your attention to your electrical system instead would be my recommendation. Check the voltage on the battery after arriving home for the day, then again the next morning. Then, I would see what the output of the alternator is both at idle with no load and then fully loaded (headlights, fan, wipers on) and get those numbers to me.

When you attach the vac gauge to a vac port, is the needle stable, or does it waver?

Yes I agree there seems to be an electrical issue at hand. I even noticed my headlights dimming on me a few nights ago. I can't remember the exact scenario, but they just dimmed for a second or two while I was starting up or something. Not only that but according to a service log that was kept by the previous owners, there was a history of continual 'Electrical' problems. Details were not given.

Which brings me to an experience I wanted to bring up anyways which is very likely the cause. When I was reconditioning the ECU, I think I messed something up! Man what an idiot I am lol. It just now dawned on me that I did it Wrong! I disconnected the Positive cable from the battery as written, but I misinterpreted the next part! Instead of connecting that Positive Cable to ground, I ran a jumper from the Positive Battery Post to ground!!! I knew in my mind that that was a short circuit but, at the time that's how I comprehended the instructions! Stupid on my part!

So... Did I potentially fry my computer and/or ruin my battery?
I suppose a proper ECU conditioning should be performed again ?

Another thing I didn't yet mention is: One evening all was fine, I stopped to visit a friend, then later that night as I started up the car to leave, all of a sudden I lost the the 'Groove' response and the vehicle acted sluggish & wimpy like it had prior to the groove.
Hmm, I'm pretty sure that's the same night I noticed the headlights dimming.

That's interesting to me, how can RPM be affected by electrical loss. Not enough spark for combustion?

Man this is turning out to be a huge crash course in learning about vehicles, Wow!
I think I'm experiencing just about everything Lol. That's ok, as long as it works in the end.

In the meantime I will take your advice Ron and document voltage.

I'll have to re-check later how the vacuum gauge needle behaves on Booster. I wasn't close enough to the gauge when I was applying the brakes. If it was moving at all it must've been vibrating very slightly because I couldn't tell from the distance and view I was at.

However, earlier on when I was vac gauging the Intake Manifold while idling, the needle was indeed vibrating so quickly that it looked blurry. I'd say a total range of ~1. Is that Normal?
Also the vacuum was only reading ~21. Shouldn't it be higher because of the Groove?

Last note: Ron, the vacuum did indeed drop when I pressed down on the brakes, as did the RPM, BUT, the vacuum did not return when I let up off the brakes.

Here's my results Ron:
Battery Voltages:

2013-01-19 (prior to any driving)
at rest: ~12v
at idle: ~14v
at idle & under load: ~14v

---

2013-01-20 (prior to any driving)
at rest: 12.69v
at idle: 14.58v
at idle & under load: 14.44v
at idle & under load + Brakes pressed: 14.36v

2013-01-20 (after driving)
at rest: ~13.13v
at idle & under load: ~14.19v
at idle & under load + Brakes pressed: 13.95v (then slowly climbs back up).

---

Other things noticed:
rotating steering wheel does not affect voltage, but it does randomly alter RPM.
sometimes it ups the RPM, sometimes down.

Things I leave on while parked for the night(which I can't imagine being a problem):
-Emergcy Brake lever
-re-circulate air button(for heater/coolin fan).

I'm also reconsidering re-conditioning the ECU (the correct way this time). Any reason why I shouldn't?

Hi Jason,

You may want to have the battery checked out.

There is a good possibility that one of the cells in the battery is slowly failing.

The alternator should be maintaining the voltage on the battery, when you press on the brakes your brake lights come on so there is an obvious load occuring at that point but when you release the brake the alternator should bring the voltage up almost instantly.

What can stop this from happening is a weak cell in the battery.

Worth checking out

Karl Fortner
Tacoma, Washington

You really should do the ECU reset, Jason! This will dramatically speed up achieving gains.

As to the other readings, that's really hard to tell, but I have a feeling your alternator may be weak at idle. I would test it without the battery in the circuit. That way you get only the alt output.

That is, IF your engine will run without the bat in the circuit. You will find that out quickly enough. Just start it and disconnect the ground cable. If it stays running, test it again. That will tell the tale completely.

Ron

PS: Your battery should hold much more than 12 vdc. Have your battery checked at a parts house also. If the tests result in a "charge and retest" result, then it's on it's way out.

R

Yup, I already did the ECU conditioning(correctly this time). I now have the 'Groove' effect once again! One thing I've always instinctively noticed is that the car wants to be driven in a range of ~55-65 MPh. It's very smooth and seems optimum there. Hard to explain, I just sense it.

I did not check the alternator directly as I did not know how to, nor could
I get a good reach on it. According to some youtube videos, simply checking
the battery terminals while idling is essentially the same as checking the Alternator. Would you agree?

Anyways, will get the battery checked.

Alright, here's my latest battery/alternator test results:

---

Test Results per 'Advanced Auto Parts':
2013-01-24

-- BATTERY --
"Good Battery"
voltage 13.39v
measured: 392 CCA
Rated: 500 CCA
Temperature: 29°F

-- STARTER TEST --
Cranking Normal
voltage: 10.59v
amps: 0.0A
Time: 812 mS

-- CHARGING SYSTEM --
No Load: 14.51v
Loaded: 14.34v
Ripple: 24mV
Charging System Output Test Normal

---

My tests via multimeter
2013-01-27 (temp. ~30°F)
voltage(battery) at rest: 12.59v
voltage(battery) at idle: 14.58v
voltage(battery) at idle & under load: 14.25v

voltage(Alternator) car idling, then battery detached: 12.71v
voltage(Alternator) car idling, then battery detached, under Load: 12.71v
Note: There was an extremely slow decrease in voltage(about .1v per minute?)


Also would like to mention I've gone thru 2 tanks of gas since re-conditioing the ECU:
I'm still only getting ~32 mpg.
Prior to the 'groove' I was getting ~36 mpg.
The performace is better but, I'd like to actually save money on gas.