TOPIC: Gadgetguys with gas analyzers - EGR / DPFE test

Gawd I'm Glad You're here, Dan!

OK I'll bite, I haven't looked ahead to see answer. Pressures in this EGR pipe will be dynamic, varying w/ engine load, RPM, etc. But I'mm gonna guess that at some point in the pipe a balance between press/ vac. will occur, and could wind up at/near ambient outside atmospheric pressure.

My next guess is what to do w/ this...re-locate the MAP sensor vac. input port here, or some combo. with manifold vac. signal and this new port together to bias towards what will look like to the MAP as a higher absolute pressure signal. Telling the MAP that the engine is under less load than it is?

Ok I'm all the way out this limb...

Thanks for the clue about flex Stainless natty gas pipe--I was visualizing something like that. Do you use this type pipe for entire plumbing of the EGR gas, all thru the BB can. Earlier today the image of a Cool Can like racers use came to mind but built to this purpose, a spiral loop of EGR pipe in a sturdy can w/BB's for Catalytic action. I'm thinking the crinkle pipe adds surface area to shed more heat inside said can..?

THANK YOU, Dan!!

Tracy G

HOLY CATS BATMAN, Mr D. just cracked open the door............................................!!

Bad pun not intended. OK so you are saying the EGR gas, I assume crankcase vapors/crud, (and some raw gasoline too?) combine in this unit for the effect? Or is this all EGR gas and crankcase vapors mixing/cracking here? In a single vessel/can? Using nickel/Platinum as catalyst, no BB's?

The right spot in the EGR gas tube, that means the flutter zone...?

OK I Truly appreciate you speaking about this, Dan! You've taught me/us something Valuable here. Do you want to give any more details on this forum, or do you sell plans, or...? I understand if you feel need not to go wide open 'bout this, you invested a lot of yourself to find this.

FUTURE, I Like IT!

ALL HAIL DAN ALL HAIL DAN!!

Tracy G

woah...

On my truck, it looks like EGRs only come from one bank...relocating to pre-cat exhaust y-pipe (and post front-side O2 sensors) and plugging existing port lets pre-cat O2 sensors see rich so ECU will trim back HARD, right gents? Lucky for me a buddy has recently introduced me to a custom exhaust shop. (mine is leaky and needs replacement soon anyway...with a cleaner burn, will I be able to get away with a smaller/lighter Catalytic converter?)

so Exhaust gas -> air/oil seperator (heat cracks PCV sludge into more useable HC, enriching intake with FUEL, AIR and a bit of Water Vapour)?

I'm already seeing slight gains/improvement in mileage and how smooth/quiet the engine has become from increasing plug gap and MPG remedy (even on winter gas!)...temp gauge even seems to be reading a bit lower when highway cruising.
The more I investigate, study, think and learn here, the cooler this all becomes...Thank you all!

Heysoundude, I just thanked ya for resurrecting this wonderful thread! This is one of the most interesting threads ever here... I got excited again re-reading it!

Still don't know how to find sweet spot in EGR feed tube, only idea I have is to measure temps along it w/ 1000 deg.f range infrared thermometer gun. Dan is speaking of thermal catalytic cracking in the combo of EGR and PCV gas using nickel& platinum catalyst metals in contact w/ the process gasses. Adding right amount of air, HHHN ( Merrick's gas, BTW), exact way to construct it, etc., still thinking again. Think a small-ish size stainless jar/box container, w/ appropriate connections for EGR gas inlet, PCV gas inlet, w/ catalytic metals in it, perhaps a small adjustable air inlet fitting/valve...I'd think a heavy-walled stainless container would be plenty sturdy, and stainless is relatively poor heat conductor, to keep process heat up, could wrap container w/ thick foil-backed ceramic insulation to keep heat inside. Crudely groping at this...

Meanwhile, Ron & Dan's idea of simply diverting EGR gas away from intake manifold, to exhaust system in right place upstream from upstream O2's, would be relatively easy. Tried looking for flex stainless natural gas hoses/tubing before, need to look again. Simple w/ single upstream O2 sensor, w/ dual upstream O2's, would need to tee the EGR feed so it leads to both exhaust pipes upstream from the O2's. When the EGR system routes thru tubing, it makes re-routing the EGR simple, just a matter of finding right pieces/parts, plus a visit to the local exhaust shop.

Soundude maybe you might route it to before upstream O2's, as per Ron's descriptions?
As a reference to this EGR mod, I'll call it the "EGR re-route".
On replacement cat- might go smaller, talk to exhaust guy. I forgot is yours a Ford? If it is I think you want to do diversion of EGR after the EGR flow sensor w/ the 2 diff. size tubes.

Thanks again for bringing this back around!

Tracy G

I think I need to spend a wee bit more time on this, but you're welcome...the idea here isn't yet fully formed between my ears...yup, I drive a Ford (3.0 litre Vulcan engine).

Here's my read and thought process:

Dan's 1st post talks about bringing the EGR back to intake, and Ron suggests that locating the EGR prior to the upstream o2 is the cause of inefficiency.

Then Dan comes back and tells us PCV and EGR go back to the intake (presumably through the T-connection he mentions in post #1) in post #4. (For thermal catalytic cracking to continue, is there enough heat from the reduced gasses/more efficient burn? I Mean, he says in Post #1 that eventually groove+ECU moots EGR entirely - I'd even venture PCV as well)

Ron confirms in post #5 that the upstream o2 needs to see rich, so relocating EGR to post-upstream o2 causes ECU to appropriately lean the system.

Further on in post #10, Dan goes so far as to say that the ECU can do an adequate job on its own, without the help of add-on electronics. (This I like)

Then in post #11, Dan talks about HHHN (need to learn up on that), a sweet spot (for the injection of his gas? for the location of the PCV catch can? both?), adding air on demand (how/where?) and catalysts (of what and where?).

Phew...Dan, if you're following this, a few more hints would be much appreciated!

Heysoundude, I like how you're digging in to trying to understand this. Dan and Ron both left ambiguity in their comments, I think Ron's idea is simplest to get.
Ron was saying ( I think) that the EGR by diverting some exhaust gas, which has unburned HC's, will give effectively higher O2 levels at the upstream O2's. There's clues to this in Ron's drawings, in the exhaust pipe the flow is faster in center, slower toward pipe inside wall, so the heaver stuff (HC's) will concentrate towards pipe inner wall. O2 sensors are at outer flow region. He suggests to re-route EGR gas to before the upstream O2(s) so the O2 will see more HC's, meaning less O2.

Dan's concepts are to thermal steam crack HC's and then reform them to a better fuel. He's given some valuable clues, just not complete details, understandably, he's invested years of research, and is an Inventor HHHN is the chemical shorthand for his new version and method to make a unique version of HHO, google Merrick's Gas. I think one company selling equip. for this is Moreco Energy. HHHN is it's own whole story! Dan's been at this since before many of us were alive!

Dan has given shorthand version here of quite involved stuff. When I've researched thermal catalytic cracking or steam reforming, I've spent hours reading about what happens at oil refineries, it gets pretty deep. You need to even look at meanings of words- catalytic, catalysis, catalytic metals, catalytic materials, etc. So what to put in a metal can to get all this happening- (my rough ideas)- A stainless steel small container w/ EGR gas and PCV gas inlets, cutting the EGR pipe and adapting crinkle flex stainless nat. gas hose as a bendable/workable tubing to get the EGR connected to the stainless container. PCV into the container. Nickel (nickels from pocket, or other nickel metal pieces) platinum pieces, maybe copper tube pieces or copper BB's, maybe ceramic pieces, all in this container. Insulate this stainless container, also the nat. gas flex hose to keep temps up, then connect output of container back to intake man. thru EGR inlet. Lots of details to think of. The rest- HHHN, the EGr pipe flutter zone, added air inlet, I just don't exactly know. A research project for sure. All to take waste streams and re-purpose to benefit. The water (steam) in the exhaust/EGR gas, w/ unburned HC's, and heavy oil/HC/ and partially burned gasoline HC molecule clusters react in presence of suitable catalysts w/ heat in the EGR gas, breakdown to form useable fuel. Maybe some of it turns to useable fuel, rest acts as HC's that show up in exhaust to shift O2/HC balance for the upstream O2 sensors. To "fool" ECU to cut fuel, by FT's going hard negative, without using electronic manipulation.

Simply re-routing the EGR to exhaust is fairly simple. To do first, while building the "cracking reactor". My wooden nickel's worth!

Tracy G

Ok, here is where our interpretations/understandings of Ron's posts differ...I think it's a plumbing and flow thing...

I've read them this way: In putting the EGR supply (where the engine gets its supply of Exhaust Gasses to Recycle, right?) location prior to the upstream 02 sensor, the sensor is not reading accurately what the engine is actually putting out because a large part is being diverted back to the engine, so the ECU is only moderately trimming back on fuel for emissions/efficiency. By relocating that EGR supply to post-upstream O2, sensor will see accurate emission data and adjust fuel trims to achieve maximum efficiency accordingly. Eventually long and short fuel trims will be reprogrammed to compensate, as will all other sensor data, as Dan suggested.

Now, with reduced fuel consumption will come reduced engine temps, but I believe there will still be plenty of heat from the exhaust gasses to vapourize waste fuel from the PCV milkshake back into engine input in "the vessel" where they combine. (I'm tempted to ask an old college buddy in Texas to put me in touch with one of his dad's engineers to talk about cracking temps, if my old man, a Chemical engineer himself, can't answer my questions).

I have to get back to the videos: my OBDii dongle came from China today, and my app tells me my engine vacuum under load is just under 30"; I think that's in the good to ideal/optimal range...if the sensor is accurate/correct. I also have to find a way to reprogram the computer/speedo to reflect my larger tires, and verify that the throttle plate is indeed at ~15% when idling and fix THAT as well, because the app gets its fuel ecomomy numbers based on speed and "intake air flow"...but I'm just a tick over 20MPG now, as I've surmised. not too shabby for a 13 yr old pickup with ~240k miles on him!

The egr heat alone is not enough to crack the fuel, only vaporize, in order to get the heat it takes to crack you must use presious metals like plat if you just put pure hyd or hho and blow it on a plat surface at the proper distance it will heat up well over 1000 degrees under a vacuum. This is easily proven as I have done this for many years not unlike a cat converter. The chemical reaction between the 2 will crack the fuel into many single and double carbon bonds making a quicker and cleaner burn.Inorder to get the max mpg from the fuel heavys, you need to crack the fuel using extra hyd to refill the bonds on the smaller carbon chains Always remember the by products of the fuel burnt will also be water which is also crucial in the cracking stage,oxidation is proven to be a helper and not hinderance in the process also only a certain amount is needed, too much can cause problems always remember we must keep our nox gases to a min,the hhhn is great for this,as the high hyd and nitrogen added cleans and provides better combustion. Remember only the surface area of the fuel burns not the liquid.so the more surface area we can make for the fuel to travel or spread the easier it will crack and the more burnable fuel you have to increase mpg!!!!!!! Heated fuel loses power, thats where the vacuum comes int play ,on the re-entry into the intake cools the fuel under a vacuum bringing back the power. This should give you an ideal on how many times you must change the fuel into the phase changes to get full burn. Dan Merrick Good Luck to all

Thank You Dan!

While I still (hopefully) have your attention/interest, am I on the right track with my EGR source re-location? Based on what you've said here, I'm happy I THINK I understand the difference between cracking and vapourization of the waste fuel in the proposed PCV/EGR collector/combinator vessel.

Once again thanks Dan for the important info, I'd neglected to think of adding H to the broken HC chains! You explained how a catalyst (platinum or other) can lower necessary energy (heat) thresholds for reactions. I wonder if you have found that platinum or other hold up and don't get contaminated too fast? Any substitute catalysts for platinum...$$$? I've seen platinum-plated iron wire catalyst on ebay, that or used cat. converter beads are only reasonable-priced platinum catalysts I've found yet. Perhaps plated ceramic substrate from a cheap cat. converter-(Rhodium?)
Heysoundude, I'd sound your dad out on this. Dan, after our emails months ago, I started searching/reading about these processes, learned a bit, but felt at an end of how to take what I read and translate into a reactor.

MY take on Ron's whole EGR deal- EGR gas (stock vehicle EGR) is always diverted upstream of O2's and converters, often it's diverted at cylinder head/intake man. junctions, or from exhaust heat crossover on old v-8's. I took Ron (and Dan's))explanation to mean, it's not where it's diverted at, but,rather where it's sent. Stock EGR system already has the diversion point there. If the Groove helps lower peak temps, then NOX will go down, so let's send that EGR gas down to exhaust, upstream from the upstream O2's, instead of into the combustion chanbers. Any computer monitoring of EGR function will sense the EGR is OK. With added unburned HC's in the exhaust AT the upstream O2's- the O2's can send higher voltage out to computer, rich signal is lean command. Cut the EGR pipe after any sensor/monitor,graft on the flex stainless nat. gas pipe/hose, plug the intake fitting, connect the nat. gas flex to the exhaust pipe(s), upstream from upstream O2 sensor(s).But that's my take on it. As Dan has told, it's elegant, no electronics fool-ery!

The reactor chamber- well, I've never had formal chemistry classes. Likely Dan alone, along w/ others familiar w/ the science, can actually reliably make a successful device. I can try- But I still feel as a simple rustic who's wandered into the Physics/chemistry lab!

Ok enuf rattlin' outa me!

Tracy G

I've found a vehicle-specific (Ford Ranger/Mazda B-Series) forum that describes a complete DELETE of the EGR system with corresponding 1-2 MPG increase in mileage.

Guy(s) have been just taking off the EGR tube and valve, capping the pintle on the exhaust manifold where the EGR system gets the source gasses (which then dumps HC rich exhaust on the upstream O2 for that bank), and capping the intake port for the EGR to re-enter the input airstream. Doing this, the DPFE seemingly becomes redundant, so that can be deleted and capped as well...somehow. They don't go into detail (from my thus far limited investigations) about keeping the EGR and DPFE parts of the computer happy.

They also detail a hot water bypass, removing/undoing the factory design where engine coolant is passed through the aluminum Intake Manifold. Performing this mod, in addition to changing the factory thermostat to one that opens 15 degrees cooler/sooner enhances the EGR delete by my understanding.

I'm going to have to process and investigate a bit further now that the snow/winter is here. Justin's RVS is coming any day now (I bought engine, transmission and differential treatments, so lessening parasitic powertrain losses will be accomplished by spring), as are my upstream 02 sensors...these are easy and fast things I can do in the driveway before it gets too cold.

I also have to think on how cooling my engine down will affect the performance of my AC when it warms up again...that needs more than a recharge, and I've found another forum for that...

Heysoundude, could you give the link to this specific forum?

I dunno if Mr. computer will play along with deleting the EGR entirely.
I'd be cautious of lowering the coolant temps going into winter, depending on local climate. I'd guess that lowering temps will help some to reduce NOX formation. EGR is there to reduce peak combustion temps.

Tracy G