TOPIC: 2000 Mazda B2500 - First Groove

Difficult vehicle, sure, my Subie. Under-powered, feedback carb. w/iron TB base, uncommon, un-popular no trick regular aftermarket parts, almost no-one plays w/ 'em,....

So I not only Grooved it but "kicked over every trash can in the neighborhood" looking for gains. Now it freaks Mechanics out... While it's true you cant make a Silk Purse from a sow's ear, you can make a neato fanny pack...

Either there is still a ghost hiding in this Mazda, or it's just tired. Either way it's one heck of a Teacher. Sorry Karl I'm lazy about re-reading this thread, but did you ever do a compression test or leak-down test? Wondering about engine's basic condition.

Your Mazda, my Subie, and others' experiences related on this great forum have reinforced an idea that it Matters what you Start with. Power-to-Weight ratio, throttle response, available torque, how many Miles on the clock, well just what kind of volant ear are ya workin' with.

Also what about the transmission, again I forget, auto or stick? could there be slippage?

When I was attempting Alchemy w/ my Subie I thought in terms of: Gains Vs. Reducing Losses. Losses are things like low tire press., too much junk weight in trunk or bed, driving habits, tranny slippage, wheel bearing drag, aerodynamic drag, fat tires instead of skinny ones, windows down instead of up, coasting downhill or to a traffic light in neutral (with a Stick NOT an automatic), internal engine friction losses, friction or drag of any kind, etc.

So it's a thought exercise first. You have to be willing to go Out Of Your Way to get gains, philosophiclly. Karl, you
Sure Have!!

I run tires rated at 44 psi max, at 48 psi. I have treated my engine w/ XADO from Ukraine. I installed a set of Airtab airfoils on rear of Subaru. Try not to keep too much stuff in the cargo area. I use Neutral gear when possible according to conditions (5 spd stick).I avoid downshifting to use engine braking as that creates a high vacuum condition that can pull oil thru valve guides into combust. chambers--I use the Brakes instead! ( My engine-rebuilt bottom end new pistons/rings/bearings but only new valve guide seals no Valve Job!) I try to keep windows rolled up or nearly so. I use A/C very infrequently. And I try not to use too much brand X no-name Gasoline. I use Regular 87 octane but stick to Shell, Chevron mostly.

Back to your Mazda Karl, I'd guess that blue line running to rear is for EVAP system from gas tank. I'm still wondering about switching to synthetic oil with high miles, you aren't seeing increased oil leaks/consumption w/ synthetic? Synth. oil is preferred, but can cause issues if switched to after high mileage accumulation. What about the Catylitic converters, in OK shape? Can check temps w/ an infrared thermometer after driving a few miles should be over 600 deg F to "light off". If getting clogged will cause higher back press., any muffler shop can advise, go to 2 or more if in doubt of their opinion.

all I've got right now, good luck, keep swinging the hammer Karl buddy!

Tracy G

Either there is still a ghost hiding in this Mazda, or it's just tired. Either way it's one heck of a Teacher. Sorry Karl I'm lazy about re-reading this thread, but did you ever do a compression test or leak-down test? Wondering about engine's basic condition.

Had a mechanic attach a gauge on the line running to the break booster and it was in the green zone at 20 pounds and he said that was good if that means anything. I did a few tests with the Mityvac and all tests(3)on EGR and break booster, and mystery line seemed to hold vacuum. Never did a leak down test since yet and it seems like the last resort.

Also what about the transmission, again I forget, auto or stick? could there be slippage?

I have a stick for the dependability and able to coast and save gas. That is the reason for doing the groove. Am doing all I can to get better mileage.

I run tires rated at 44 psi max, at 48 psi. I have treated my engine w/ XADO from Ukraine. I installed a set of Airtab airfoils on rear of Subaru. Try not to keep too much stuff in the cargo area. I use Neutral gear when possible according to conditions (5 spd stick).I avoid downshifting to use engine braking as that creates a high vacuum condition that can pull oil thru valve guides into combust. chambers--I use the Brakes instead!

Same here on over inflating tires and going into neutral to coast downhill or to a stop light or stop sign. Better to get to the light slower with a slight roll and shift straight into 2nd or 3rd than make a stop and waste gas starting again in first.

Back to your Mazda Karl, I'd guess that blue line running to rear is for EVAP system from gas tank. I'm still wondering about switching to synthetic oil with high miles, you aren't seeing increased oil leaks/consumption w/ synthetic? Synth. oil is preferred, but can cause issues if switched to after high mileage accumulation. What about the Catylitic converters, in OK shape? Can check temps w/ an infrared thermometer after driving a few miles should be over 600 deg F to "light off". If getting clogged will cause higher back press., any muffler shop can advise, go to 2 or more if in doubt of their opinion.


Switched to synthetic a couple of years ago. Loose about a quart every 5k miles. Dont have any leaking anywhere else that I see.
Bought an infrared thermometer a month ago shot at exhaust pipe around 1st 02 sensor and got a reading over 600 deg F there but it got cooler as I let it idle and kept taking temps. Thought the light was bad seeing the temps jump all over when being held in one spot but did a couple of times and the same thing happened. it was 600 degrees as soon as I stopped and took temp but cooled down as it idled. Didnt go back to CAT and take temps though.
Did get rid of the check engine light after changing my pre-CAT 02 sensor.
One thing that puzzles me is that I did a smell test on the exhaust the first time and it smelled clean. Have been doing it periodically after each change/test and now get an exhaust smell again.
Wondering why it smelled clean once and now a scent of exhaust.
Thanks again for your thoughts on this. Guess a leak down test is the last resort. Wondering how extensive that would be, what it could find and what it would cost to fix if worth it.

Yo Karl, good ya have a sitck shift you would be able to feel clutch slippage, good you are hip to the driving technique.

A leak down test is just a more involved kind of compression test, google it. A compression tester is easy to use and not too costly U can do it Yerself. Best is to pull all plugs out, then screw comp tester in one cyl, pull the fuel pump fuse out so injectors dont spray gas. Block Throttle blade open, and disable 12 V power to coil pack(s). Keep track of what plug wire goes where I put masking tape on and # each plug wire.

w/ comp tester in plug hole crank engine over. Some like to crank till PSI on guage maxes out. I sick w/ a fixed number of revolutions say 8 or 10, you will hear the cranking sound change as the cyl. being tested comes under compression. Fixed # of rev's keeps test results real, a weak cylinder will take more rev's to reach max PSI. So write down the results go around the engine. I refer to a manual and draw out the cylinders by # on paper using the Mfg's cylinder #ing sequence so I'm referring to a standard of what cyl is what number.

Go all round then come back and repeat this time squirt a teaspoon or so of oil into each plug hole first before screwing in comp. tester. This helps w/ ring seal, so if any cyl. comes up noticeably in PSI you know the rings are leaking in that cyl. You have 2 plugs per cyl only need to pull one per cyl. doing this removes compression pressure/loading on all cyl's but the one being tested engine will spin over faster than normal ought to only take a few sec. per cyl to get your readings. this way starter doesnt work so hard also.

Generally most books say more than 20% difference in compression PSI between any cylinders is cause for concern. But look at a good manual it should list spec's for engine compression #'s .

so Karl get your compression test #'s and come back here w/ 'em then we can discuss them, I gotta hit the rack, Later, buddy!

Tracy G

Tracy.....Got another problem now.
Right after I did the groove I noticed the yellow gunk in the oil and we thought it was attributed to the PCV reroute. Also had a P0107 code(lean bank 1) that I cant seem to get rid of. Well I got tired of the gunk and rerouted the PCV into a container by itself with a filter before it. The gunk in the oil is still there and now am loosing power where the truck feels like its jolting/braking by itself. Brought it to a local guy and he got the same code and I told him about the oil. He checked the oil and believes between the loss of power/jolting and water in the oil that its the head gasket. Dont have any white smoke out the tailpipe and its hard to tell how much anti-freeze I lost(it is low)so cant bring the anti-freeze loss into the equation.
Could the lack of HP and MPG after the groove be attributed to the possible head gasket problem that seems to be getting worse?
I didnt have the bucking/jolting right after the groove in April but I did have the gunk in the oil right away and no HP increase.
Let me know if you think the head gasket is the problem and which of the fixes you recommend. There is Thermagasket RX,Blue Devil or K&W Engine Block Seal. I saw the K&W in Walmart called Head Gasket & Block Repair and dont know if its the same thing.
Would like your input as the the problem and what you have heard/know about these products.
Thanks....Karl

Karl you have a blow head gasket do not drive it until it is fix. Thermagasket RX,Blue Devil or K&W Engine Block Seal IS NOT GOING TO HELP you must replace the head gasket .

Yo Karl,

The head gasket is bad. You can try the magic miracle cure-in-a -can...but ya gotta think about this: If the head gasket is leaking coolant into the oil, and it's also leaking cylinder compression...well it's REAL BAD! Honestly it's time to actually fix this motor. The fix in a can stuff might have worked months ago, but I think it's too late for it now.

I've used the KW stuff once before with good results. I tried Blue Devil twice on my own cars, w/ poor results. don't know 'bout the other one. Blue Devil can gunk up the cooling system, radiator and heater core, as can anything put into the cooling system as a stop leak.

You have, from what you have posted here, a major head gasket failure. When the head is removed it should be checked at a machine shop for cracks. I'd also talk to the machinist 'bout a valve job pro/con since the head will be off. Proper execution of this procedure will result in the top of the engine being properly sealed w/ new head and manifold gaskets. I would say talk to a machine shop.

IF posibble stop driving this beast and do a real fix. IF it is operated longer in this state it will probably die.

IF you want to roll the dice don't use blue devil based my experience. It's too late for the miracle cure in a can IMHO.

I bet THIS is the source of all your post-Groove problems in this Mazda! Talk to your mrechanic, try to find someone w/ experience w/ your engine. IT's not a question of the head gasket, but attendant issues--would doing a valve job now lead to more ring wear from increased cylinder pressure, how much $$ is all this gonna cost, can ya do it yourself, is it worth it, etc. Maybe--just maybe- you could fix the head/intake gaskets do a valve job, AND then treat it w/ RVS ...?.

Good luck, Karl!

Tracy G

To say I am unhappy is an understatement. The gunk in the oil I thought was not too big a deal since it seems like others have the same problems with the water/oil issue. Then I go on Youtube and see someone with a much more severe problem it seems since they are seeing white smoke as in this video and it was cured by KW. Found this after Justin who I bought the RVS from recommended the KW stuff.

So what I dont understand is why I am not getting the white smoke as an indicator. The lurching here and there does really concern me and the loss of power I feel is a sign also of the gasket.

You posted:
When the head is removed it should be checked at a machine shop for cracks. I'd also talk to the machinist 'bout a valve job pro/con since the head will be off. Proper execution of this procedure will result in the top of the engine being properly sealed w/ new head and manifold gaskets. I would say talk to a machine shop.

The only "machine shop" I know is a local mechanic or a Mazda dealer. A Mazda dealer could be dishonest so I dont like just putting my truck into the hands of anyone who is not competent or honest. As far as having other things checked while its off, I can only hope the local mechanic would know enough to do that. Would not want to have the gasket changed only to find out there are other issues later on. Talked to the mechanic this morning and its a 7 hour and $800 job just to replace.
Just talked to another mechanic as I was typing this who I trust more and is a distance away, he said he thought it was a vacuum leak and is sucking the water in the oil from the outside. This made kind of sense because I didnt see the water in the oil until right after the groove. It would be a strange coincidence that the HG started leaking the same week the groove was done. I remember Ron saying before I did the groove that if I didnt get the HP right away, then I have a vacuum leak somewhere. And going on the forums I see where in older engines that sometimes the groove can suck in water through a seal into the oil. So I am hoping in some way that if it is a vacuum leak, the leak is getting worse causing the lurching. Had a similar problem with my 70 NOVA when I had a manifold gasket leak, just that I didnt have water in the oil. The mechanic also recommended I didnt replace the gasket but to just get a rebuilt engine. He though I would be wasting money since more can go wrong and it would be a money pit.
So Guys, I am going to call another mechanic Friday who does a smoke test for leaks and see if he can determine whether a leak or a HG problem.
Thanks again guys for your input and advice......Karl

Hi Karl well I have said that this Ford engined Mazda truck is a great teacher.

Think of where oil and coolant are in close proximity in the engine. It's posibble that either head or intake gasket was marginal then ya Grooved the TB.

Possible scenario: Groove actually DID increase cylinder pressure (that's where power is made) and head gasket, already marginal, starts to fail.

Or: Groove increased manifold vac. and marginal intake gasket starts to fail.

Or some combo of both.

Or some witch doctor stuck a pin in a voodoo doll of your truck...(sorry I couldn't resist!)

I'd look for signs of where oil/coolant are mixing. One of first things I look at if I'm presented with an engine with drastic symptoms is oil fill and radiator caps. Obviously don't pull cap off a hot radiator!

Diagnostics are core of Mechanics' skill set. Did you ever do a compression test? A compression tester isn't expensive, under 40 bucks. Mostly takes time to pull the spark plugs and go thru the routine. OK I just watched the Thermogasket vid. If you don't have white ex. smoke then might mean no coolant getting into cyl's. The compression test is to verify if cyl's/head gasket is holding compression. And to look at plugs cond. If plugs look Ok and comp. test is good, then I'd be more suspicious of bad intake manifold gaskets. Plenty of info online nowadays, look for detail info on this Ford engine as to cyl. head//intake and cyl. head//block details, how/where can oil& water mix, where are collant passages located? I don't wrench on cars for a living today so it's harder to immediately have the exact answer quickly every time.



Much cheaoer to DIY this... Every hour of mechanic's labor charge can pay for tools. Maybe DIY isn't right for you here/now, dunno... But the more tools and skills one gathers the more in control one is. Maybe major work like replacing head/intake gaskets or even an engine swap is beyond what you want to do. Heck I lack a garage, so some stuff I gotta hire a shop for too.

When I said machine shop I meant Engine machine shop where they rebuild engines, those folks are usually quite knowledgeable. Ask questions respectfully you can learn a LOT!


again, good Luck, Karl!

Go back to the basics.

If you suspect you have a leak in your cylinders, you should start with a compression test. I don't know how hard it is to get to the spark plugs on this beast, but the compression testers are easy to find and should run about $20-30.

Write down the numbers when you get the readings. This will tell a LOT about the state of affairs.

The Groove itself can NOT cause problems like this, although it has been known to magnify already existing service issues. In fact, I LIKE that it does that, as many many problems can cause complete engine destruction if left unchecked.

So, get those numbers.

Also, it wouldn't hurt none to get the radiator pressure tested in a shop...

Just sayin'...

And I'm sorry you're having so much trouble with this machine. Just remember, it is only a machine, and all things made by man are doomed to fail.

Ron

Here is a link to someone who had a similar problem and the suggested fix.





Went to get a smoke test for a vac leak today to see if that was the problem.
When the mech. saw the dipstick with the water and gunk, he was sure it was a head gasket and didnt even do the test.
Thought this gunk was a common problem since I did post about it on this forum/post back in April right after the groove in the link below and a head gasket problem was not mentioned as a probably cause.The stuff was referred to as "crud" and was a common problem it seemed. Thought that the oil resperater was made to catch this crud because I thought that others had a similar problem with it.

Here are the pics with the crud and the posts a few months back on what this crud is.

gadgetmangroove.com/index.php/kunena/groovy-vehicles/3294-2000-mazda-b2500-first-groove?start=24



So I guess its not worth doing a compression test seeing that it can only verify the problem diagnosed. If all think its a head gasket, can a compression test give me a look at a different problem that could pull water into my oil instead of the HG?

I am not blowing white smoke as an indicator so its not at a critical stage yet I guess.
Checked into a HG job and am looking at $1000 without machine work done if needed. Checked with a friends mechanic and he suggested not to do a HG job but to get a rebuilt since a HG job can lead to more problems or there could be other things pop up to add to expenses. A rebuilt is $3000 before labor so we are looking at $4000 easy. Sickening numbers for sure but what choices do I have?
As far as the compression. I can get to 3 plugs easy, 3 plugs with some difficulty(angles with other things in the way), and two plugs totally covered by manifold. Its an 4 cylinder with 2 plugs on each side of each cylinder. Broke the first 3 of 6 platinum plugs even though I thought I was careful and replaced with Extreme Plugs. The last 2 I left because I cant get to. The plugs looked OK with no deposits I could determine.
Just filled the radiator reserve yesterday to a mark I made to look for any level drop.
Went less than 50 miles and lost 2 cups(just refilled to mark) so am wondering if it replenished a lower than topped off level in the radiator or was lost through the HG. Refilled again to mark and if it keeps falling, its probably the HG since I see no leaks on the ground.
Unless there is another way for water to get into the oil as in a vac leak in the manifold, then the compression test would only take time to tell me the HG is bad. I try to be logical and to try to make things as easy as possible. Also like direct answers/knowledge instead of questions/ignorance and I definitely have much more questions/ignorance.
Am considering the K&W head gasket quick fix for now because a $4000 fix is not a possibility.
The only desire to have such an expensive fix is to know the engine block would be new with a graphite head gasket and have no leaks so the groove would give me the benefits I desire.
This whole charade with this engine would finally be over.

Frustrated in NY for sure.......Karl

Update on this rebellious beast.
Took it to a recommended mechanic and he said he did the smoke test with no results for leaks. With the oil looking so milky on the stick and in the hose from the VC to the TB, he says he's sure its a head gasket. Well after changing the gasket this is what he told me. The compression is the cylinders were between 165-175 which supposedly surprised him. He revved the engine to 3k rpms to get those numbers. Asked me whether the original engine was replaced and whether I had the truck from the beginning. Yes it was the original engine and he said he was surprised the engine was in such "clean" shape after 270k miles. Dont know exactly what he meant by that so I asked him how it ran. Said it ran like a new vehicle and didnt know how it ran before but was pleased with how well it runs. So I was anxious to see if my problems were gone and took it for the ultimate test. Big bummer!!! Yes it runs better, the check engine code of p0701 is gone and the idle is smooth with no fluctuations and no hesitations at highway speed but no HP increase like I was hoping for. Not only that but checking the Scan Gauge II, it looks like the MPG is dropping from where it was before the "fix". So I ran two tanks of gas to get the MPG reading. I am now getting about 22 MPG combined when I was getting 25MPG before. So if the mechanic is right with no vac leaks, what can be the cause now for no difference in performance and loss of gas mileage???
I was hoping the gasket leak was the cause of no HP and MPG gain but it doesnt seem to be the case since now my mileage went down. Any suggestions?

Karl

It's Winter. MPG always goes down in winter in my exp., Groove or not.

Glad the head gask is fixed. IMHO now you have challenges instead of impending engine death. That's Good News to me!

Plug something into OBDII port, watch sensor values in real time, esp. O2's Have someone drive it w/ warmed up engine and watch the values.

O2 voltages (remember low is Lean), and how often the voltage goes hi to low (cross counts) gives indication of cond. of O2 sensors. O2's get "lazy"--slow to switch hi to low volts or can just hold value for seconds at a time Bad O2's will hold back gains. Plus cond. of Cat. converters is factor too. Ask your mechanic.

Unfortunately those in know say you need Ford Factory supplied O2's to get ones that will work best and last.

this truck has been a harsh Teacher, but I bet you're learning!

Tracy G