TOPIC: double Groove TB on Karl's Mazda/Ford truck

Karl, try getting that O2 mounted in in stock fashion, maybe using the extender has pulled the sensor tip far enough out of the exhaust stream to make it "see" too little exhaust. Yeah, if the exhaust is stinky, and inducing a loose hose vac. leak gives no response, she's Dumping in too much fuel. The LTFT +25 is a dead giveaway of course. Just guessing here-Heck I've done that w/ this for a long time now, but maybe a combination of the O2 sensor situation, AND a manifold vac. leak, is conspiring against you?

Is there a real problem w/ the O2 sensor or it's mounting bung, or is this just a mod you're trying? I recall Ron's deal of heavier denser stuff in the exhaust stream concentrating in the outer area close to the pipe, but sometimnes things work in Reverse...

Hey there's an Idea, just drive backwards in Reverse all the time, see what happens.............



or not....
Sorry buddy, i Just Had to!!! LOL!!

OK here's a Diagnostic Idea from the Halfbakery Dept....Now this is a V-6 right? So I assume there is a ""lifter valley" under the intake between the heads...Does it go into Closed Loop like normal? is Warm up t time unusual, like too long? is it reaching normal temp? Does the oil smell like gas? I'd check those things. IF the oil is gas smelling, get some off the dipstick and see if it feels oily-enough between fingers, or too thin feeling?. Anyhow, my hunch was to remove the oil fill cap at idle, and if it's not bblowing out from there from blow-by too much, you could spray in short bursts of carb. cleaner, or maybe starting fluid, and see if there is any reaction in idle sound speed or quality in some way. I'm theorizing that since the mechanic R/R'ed the intake and heads, maybe, just maybe, there is a man. vac. leak from UNDER the intake, at the gasket parting line between head(s) and intake. If the heads were surfaced during the valve job, (you had a valve job, right?) there could be a change in geometry of the angles of the heads manifold face angle, and the intake manifold's mounting face angles. I'm slinging mud at the wall, very possibly wrong. But, a manifold vac. leak CAN happen this way if things are wrong enough. it could be sucking in air/crankcase gasses from the lifter valley if this engine is the design I'm thinking of. IF spraying in carb. or starting fluid thru the oil fill hole doesn't give any reaction, you might pull batt. pos. cable to dump codes and reset FT's to baseline, then try this trick again.

Did the FT's get worse after you put the extender under the O2? How long has this extender been there? IF you've checked EVERY last man. vac. connection and hose/line, it may be this lifter valley vac. leak. Obviously the ECU thinks the engine needs this extra fuel, it might be doing it's job properly, as it's programmed to do. LT+25 is no joke! That's gonna burn up a cat. convert. if it isn't fixed, IMHO. That extender is an upstream O2 right?

Ok gettin' late here hard to see straight or type right...

Over-

Tracy G

Hey Karl - have you sorted out the high idle issue? Was it the coolant temp sensor?

A patched upstream O2 sensor bung would definitely mess with fuel trims if the patch leaks:
Too much air being sensed there would make the computer dump fuel to compensate as
far as the computer is concerned. I Don't feel qualified to speculate on moving the sensor out of the exhaust
stream with an extender, but if it's not seeing what the computer expects to see because of it, my
thinking is computer will dump fuel to compensate as its default.
Wouldn't the extender work better post-cat if the purpose is to make it see cleaner air? I mean, if you're moving things around to experiment, have you tried that to see what results??

Are you sure you're not poking too many bears at the same time, Karl? Maybe I'm just not seeing the big picture
since I havent had my coffee yet this morning...

Greg,
The high idle has to be the TPS since when I changed to the old TB the problem went away.

Tracy, I have a 4 cylinder with 8 plugs, not a 6. Dont remember if the fuel trim readings were better or worse after the extender.

Now I have another problem. Truck ran rough so I thought it was a vac leak getting worse.
Have had three codes for the last month. One 0171 which is lean, One 0401 which is the EGR rerig I did posted on this board and now reads a code and the other is the 0136 which is the 02.
Almost stalled going up a hill and thought it was the vac leak/loose hose since it was really struggling. Then when I stopped to examine engine I could not see a loose hose and continued on.
Had a hesitation going down the road and then it cleared up. Started playing with the scan tool and found my 02 readings were nuts. The STFT and LTFT #s werent even reading...all 0's and then after a few minutes it popped up to 42 STFT and 0 LTFT. Now I know I have a problem. So started playing with the scan tool while driving and found I was in open loop. Oh boy.
Got back home and did some research. Found an 02 signal not reading would cause that problem and also some EGR problems would cause OL. The 02's are new so hopefully its the seating on the upstream that is causing it even though I wrapped it with foil to seal and not the EGR rerig.
So now I have to get the mechanic to remove that 02 extender to see if that clears it up.
If not, then have to go back to stock EGR set up and see.

PS...the only good thing about these problems with this truck is that with each episode I learn a little more and it keeps this board a little more active and gives some here ongoing entertainment....at my expense .

Yes, Karl, it's kind of a masochistic entertainment isn't it? Well I got my keyboard in my mouth again- I keep forgetting yours is a 4 cylinder. So my wonderful lifter valley vacuum leak theory is hot air. Well hopefully we eventually figure this beast out before blowing enuf hot air to float the Graf Zeppelin!

It might be best to reverse or temporarily undo all non-stock mods, most of 'em anyway, to get this truck on an even keel. After it flies right, then we can go back to grafting jet engines on the dirigible. I found this great idea for sticking Vectored Thrust super-Cruise jet engines on an Airship, all you have to do is...........

Tracy G

Here is an update on the truck by the clown who owns it.

Had an issue with stumbling and open loop where it felt like it was going to stall.
Started with looking at the basics so I found out it could be a few things like dirty MAF sensor which I had before and changed it and problem was solved. Now I have a new one I clean every so often to keep it fresh. Also was looking at vac leaks(like I havent looked enough already?). Also for the IAC and EGR which is capped off and last of all the 02 sensors which are new but the pre cat has a broken extender and is letting in some air so that could have a bad effect on the STFT/LTFT and giving me the codes.
Well started with taking off the air filter to spray the MAF and what did I see.
Found a shop rag in the air box that got sucked into the box thru an enlarged hole I made for better breathing. Could that be the problem????? Like DUHHH....maybe.
So put the box back together and would find out next time I ran the truck.
Well first time running down the road after about 10 miles I got another hesitation/stumbling and was frustrated thinking the rag was not the problem. Kept going to destination.
On the way back home, nothing. Its now been over 700 miles later and no stumbling/hesitation again. So wondering where that last stumbling came from a while after removing the rag and then nothing so far after that?
Well since I was still having poor acceleration and could not find any vac leaks through brake cleaner spraying on all gaskets and hoses I could see, I decided to do my own smoke test via Youtube since I was not going to pay $100 minimum to a mechanic who could do it but was never available and a long trip away. Youtube is a great place to find information and Scotty Kilmer gave me the knowledge on how to DIY with little effort.
Bought a cheap mini cigar from 7-11 and gave it a whirl. Took off the breather tube from MAF to TB and plugged the tube with a tennis ball so smoke would not exit through filter. Blew smoke into the fixed tube leading into TB. Found out that its best to do at night after a day time effort saw no results seeing the smoke was difficult to see with sunlight.
Tried again at night and found a leak quickly. It was from the IAC but NOT from the seal/gasket where I was concentrating the brake cleaner when testing that area. It was from a 1/2" cap on the backside. Removed the IAC to seal and then wondered if this is normal or not.
Found on a Ford forum that featured someone with the same issue but a respondent said this leak was normal. So since I had my old IAC original to the truck still in my possession I decided to find out. Shot brake cleaner into the leaking one and it came out the back cap where the leak was. Shot it into the old IAC and there was no leaking fluid from the same cap on the old IAC.
The new one is an Autozone purchase, enough said.
Sealed the cap with some silicone and heated to cure. Placed back on the TB and gave it a test with a long trip.
The LTFT is still reading high at idle(20)where it was before but the throttle response is noticeable. Also the lean code I had is now eliminated with the IAC leak fix. Also had the idle running between 800-950 back and forth with the leak. Now the idle is steady atround 750 which is where it was normally before troubles began years ago.

So solved(hopefully) the stumbling by finding the rag and found another vac leak with results in torque(not MPG though) with a cheap cigar.

(spoken in Agent 86"s voice from Get Smart TV series)..."The old shop rag and leaky IAC trick!"

You're gettin' better at this diagnostic stuff Karl! Maybe fixin' that O2 sensor bung will do more...

I'd like to see a pic or two of the IAC and it's leak location, we have lotsa Ford's 'round these parts...

Tracy G

Karl - is this with your grooved TB? NOW we're getting somewhere I think!
I forget - have you swapped out the double grooved TB Tracy did for you for a stock one to find the problem(s)?
Now that you've got the IAC leak sorted, I'd go back to your grooved TB with the fixed IAC, do the computer re-program and then If Necessary, the IAC re-set as directed by Ford (pull the connector off ith IAC and hold the engine at 2000-2500 RPM for ~30 secs, IIRC, then re-connect).
If your engine can suck a shop rag into the airbox, you're in great shape to mix air/fuel for efficiency.

for sure Scotty Kilmer and guys like him are Awesome!!

in the voice of W.C. Fields- "what this country needs is a good Five Cent Smoke Tester!"

A little McGuyverism can be a big help!

I'd be curious if the STFT number is dropping, it "teaches" the LTFT. I say fix the O2 sensor bung issue, then see, then see about getting back into the fun Groove stuff. Gotta be able to walk before the Olympic track and field stuff...

Tracy G

Thanks for the info Dan, will do this soon.

Here is an update.
The next day after posting my last post, my truck acted up worse. Felt like Tracy when he stated to a friend how well his Subie was running and almost immediately after making that statement, his Subie took a dump on him.

Was going down the highway when loss of power and hesitations hit me. Truck started mildly bucking and seemed to want to stall. Thought it was fuel delivery issues and then looked at my Scangauge.
Saw the TPS at 32, which is about wide open which is not where I had the pedal and the MPG at 1,500+...WOW...something is going on here.
Thought I was going to get stuck on highway so made it to a safe location and started checking engine.
Running rough until I closed the manifold vac valve I have on hose from the PVC. Once closed the engine immediately stalled.
So here I am thinking something is blocking air flow so opened up the air box expecting to see another shop rag but found nothing. Then I tapped TB while off and started back up again and seemed to be back to normal until I gave it gas and it died again. Still thinking air flow related and maybe connected to TPS or IAC I supposedly fixed.
Hit the road hoping to make it home and after reaching I had the idea to put on the double grooved TB which has a bad TPS(I think) and see if I have a bad IAC or TPS on the original TB. So am hopting at least the hesitation and bucking will be solved with the double groove TB but I will have a high idle like before. So started up and found not only had high idle like I expected, but the hesitation on acceleration was still there so I looked for the code on the Scangauge.
Found one for the TPS and IAC which I had before on this TB but now I had a MAF code. Had this issue with hesitation on acceleration before with a bad MAF but at highway speed the issue disappeared with the last MAF. So wondering if the new problems(which was worse than the original MAF problems 4 years ago) are actually the MAF again.
Well went to the FORD(Fix Or Repair Daily) dealer and bought(was actually robbed) a refurbished MAF for $210($75 core charge).
Nothing like feeling of being raped when buying parts from the crooks who make these programmed fuel guzzling chunks of junk.
Put on the new(refurbished) MAF on and problem seems solved.
Now about the 02 sensor extender. Tried to remove myself with cutting with Dremel and only found that once I cut out a section thinking I could weaken it and remove easier, found I still have another good 3/8" of threads still in the bung. Now getting it out will be more difficult unless I can cut the metal inside the bung hole. This may be a difficult thing even for a mechanic.
Will have to wait till that issue can be dealt with.

I just gotta say, apologies in advance...

You know there are professionals that people (mostly guys I think, I wouldn't know for sure) go to and pay for abuse. I believe they are known as Dominatrixes. I'm told it's even possible to negotiate the type and duration of various kinds of pain and suffering to be administered, for a suitable fee, of course .

the difference for Karl, (and me, and many others here at times I'm sure) is that in his case, the mental torture has continued for years now. It's fixed----IT's not fixed---it's fixed---it's not.....

"The Old Wise One cares not how many times you climb the mountain and attempt to solve his riddle, for the stick he smites you with each time you give another wrong answer is Patient...." But as you gain Knowledge and get closer to the Truth and the Right Answer, do you notice that the blows from the stick seem less painful?

As I said a few years back, Karl, This Truck is going to Teach you things....

( Tracy ducks as Karl throws a rock at him...!)

keep goin' Karl buddy!

Tracy G

Update on the 02 extender that broke off in the bung.
Took it to a mechanic and after him spending 20 minutes with a torch and a device to
spin the remaining extender out, he made no progress. Said it was stuck in there too hard to remove that way. Would have to take the whole exhaust manifold off to do it the right way.
Well his 3 hours to do it that way would be over $330 so I opted out for a better solution if I could find one. Since my Dremel cutting wheel was too big for the hole, I tried the only other
thing I could think of. Took a jigsaw blade for metal and spent a good hour in the whole with my hands sawing at the piece. Finally got thru till I saw the threads of the bung and then tried
to wedge a screwdriver in between the remaining metal and the threads to pry it in to get enough leverage to bend the remaining metal away from the threads. Broke off the remaining metal that was out of the hole and now had nothing to wedge anything against the remaining metal inside the hole.
Pic below.
Had to get a masonry nail to make a space between the remaining ring inside the bung and finally loosened it enough to remove with a needle nose.
Now I still have the 1131 and 1132 codes for the 02 sensor and the truck runs in open loop most of the time. Supposedly the space in the bung with the 02 inserted could have damaged the sensor where it needs to be replaced even though its less than 2 years old.

Man, I'm sorry for all your troubles. It seems to me that if it's not one thing, it's another. I know how frustrating that can be. I have faith that your diligence will pay off and I hope you still do as well.