TOPIC: Hi Everyone!!!!! Love the forum-Want to start grooving!!!!!!

You Guys are hilarious..... Ha Ha Ha

Karl I will send the coast guard to fetch you halfway-so you won't have to swim that far....

PCV Reroute

PCV Reroute

I checked that the pipe does not get pressed closed under the intake body.
Also checked for vacuum leaks with carb cleaner. None so far.

I did not use clear pipe as Tracey suggested because firstly I did not have any and secondly I will check the TB when I groove it and then do a mod if needed.

Tracey I saw the posts with the oil/water trap that you made- Good idea.

I can't find where the data plug is situated...Maybe behind the glove compartment. I will find out this week. There is a check engine light on the dash so I suppose there should be a plug and codes.

Will let you know as soon as possible.

Tracey

The plugs are quite new. about 3000 miles or so old.

I reduced the plug gap from 2.23 mm down to 1.81 mm. That is 0.0712 inches.

There was a stutter every once in a while on the bigger setting-that is now gone and the power seems to be better as well.

My multi meter only tests to 2000 ohms. I can tell you that the resistance in the wires is more than 2000 ohm. It maxed the meter out. I will see if I can make a plan to have the resistance tested this week.

Yes PL Kit was paid for Yesterday and mail sent to Collette. Waiting in anticipation for a response from her......

No cracking on the intake duct. I experimented at some point with piping going in there. Little did I realize as Greg pointed out that a lot of the sensors are before that area. So I stopped the experiment and closed the holes with Car Silicone. I will check for air leaks there as well. But I dont think it is leaking.

I think the smooth pipe is a great Idea Tracey. Will start sourcing and will post pics as soon as I did the mod.

Will start sourcing a TB as well. Also a great Idea Tracey.

Karl.

Don't you think because of the almost dinosaur type computer system that I might not get good results because the computer just spurts out fuel without really measuring or am I missing something regarding these computer systems?

Also Why has no one tried to modify the computer parameters instead of trying to fool these computers with resistors and what not. I mean if a computer has xyz parameter and you change it to abc that should surely work.

I suppose that last statement really prove how little I know about these systems. But if I don't pose the question I will never know.....

Martin, re: computers. Well there are aftermarket performance "chips", and other ways to get into the software maps of the ECu's, it's often called re-flashing. I have no experience w/ that directly. there are also methods using a laptop, or by now probably some kinda smartphone app ( I'm still in the Pre-Cambrian epoch, I just have a flip phone, I only use it to talk on, imagine that). There are "tuners" who mess w/ all this and do crazy mods to lots of cars as well. ME, honestly I have some indirect knowledge of all this, but compared to many today, I just fell off the Covered Wagon.

A bit of info I ran across awhile ago said that actually in many/most cases, the ECU is really measuring the incoming air--volume, temp, (or combine the 2 to get Density). Think about it, you have the Mass air flow sensor (MAF) the intake air temp sensor, sometimes a Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP) sensor, a throttle position sensor (TPS). Then there's an Engine Coolant Temp sensor (ECT) separate from the sensor for the dash temp gauge. An RPM sensor, often integrated w/ the Crankshaft Position sensor, or maybe w/ the Camshaft Position sensor. THEN after all is said and done, the Oxygen (O2) Sensor(S) before and after a Catalytic Converter. Most of the sensors have to do with the incoming air for combustion. So, what's going on, to over-simplify, is: the ECU is judging all about the volume and temp of incoming air. It uses a MAP sensor as analogue to the power valve on a carb. IT also factors in throttle angle as a calculation of engine loading, along w/ RPM's. IT looks at engine temp as well.

So the ECU looks at all this info, THEN it decides how much gas is needed. Done usually by varying how long it energises the injector solonoid, (or actually, by switching on the connection to ground.) Then AFTER the fact, it checks how much O2 is in the exhaust, and re-calculates for the next injector in the firing order. I think the latest cars, or maybe for some yrs now, it is fast enough to do all this DURING the injector on-time...and adjust things during that given injector on time.

ANYHOW- my point is- it is at least as focused on the incoming air as it is the end result(The o2's) SO this means, to me, it's possible to have a system like yours without any O2 sensors. The O2 sensors are there to protect and feed (yes, feed) the catalytic converter. To an extent cat's need fed some unburned fuel, to give it fuel to burn, to achieve enough heat ("light-off"). So in effect the cat needs wasted gas to ensure it cleans up wasted gas. how's THAT for Logic, Batman? IT's more precise than that sounds, but that's my basic understanding of it. The Emissions System in modern cars is designed to care and feed the Gubmint Mandated Catalytic Converter, first installed in cars for sale in the USA in 1975. Trucks were gradually phased in, with nearly all vehicles Cat-equipped by the late 80's. Put all this another way, the ECU is measuring the AIR, (along w/ RPM, load and engine temp), then throwing in what it thinks is the right amount of gas.

A vacuum leak, throws things off, by reducing intake manifold vacuum, and that looks like increased load to the ECU. ECU is also called PCM for Powertrain control Module. A big enough leak will cause rough idle, even rough overall running. A small leak, the ECU can just "cover" it with added fuel, it runs smooth enough. You lose mileage and may not feel or realize it. Remember, the Groove causes a spike in manifold vacuum during the first half of the Intake stroke, too fast to see w/ a handheld vacuum gauge. That decreased pressure (increased Vacuum) in the manifold will extend to the intake valve of the cylinder, and affect conditions in the combustion chamber as the intake charge is flowing in past the intake valve. This helps fuel vaporization leading to the gains we seek.

Right now, Martin, I don't understand how the ECU in your Colt truck completes calculations to adjust fuel delivery, with no O2's present. IT's almost like an old-style carb., with no feedback. I'd really like to be able to read info about the strategy your ECU uses. It seems like this ECU will be pretty "dumb" and docile, and not likely to fight gains. But at the same time is it so dumb it can't give any gains either? It HAS to have ability to adjust to changing conditions. Perhaps it might rely more on TPS, if there is a power gain, and you are driving for economy, you should use less throttle, and the ECU should see that. IF you find a manual, printed, or online, for the Colt, see if ya can find an Emissions System chapter, to find a diagram schematic of both the sensors and a wiring diagram. It might be an Engine Wiring diagram, to show the various input sensors. If you can find anything online post a link to it if possible here, or to me. My email is This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

Were moving right along here, this Colt truck is going to be Real Interesting! I'm curious to find out if it's possible to get really good gains on a system like this. IF it is, and there's a lot of 'em around you, well, Martin...

One more thing, Martin. It would be good if you can do an Orange Test w/ the Colt, to find steady state road hiway mileage. Best way is a 50 mile run at steady hiway speed 25 out, 25 back. A hiway with as straight and flat a route as possible. Start at a gas station right next to an onramp, fill it up to a known full point. IF the pump clicks of automatically, then pick one, two, or however many clicks off, or how high in the filler neck you can duplicate, at test end. Note how you parked at pump to be able to duplicate it again. Once you get to really good high mileage numbers, all this really affects resulting math results. Try to be as Emperical as you can. Get on the road, get up to speed, and hold speed for 25 miles, find a place to turn around to return back to that same station and pump, park just the same way as you filled it up first time.Doesn't have to be 50 miles total, but something long enough to give distance to make results meaningful. Can be longer if you like. And note the route carefully like where/how you turn round so can duplicate again later. Re-fill, then divide miles (KM"S) by gallons (Liters). Ideally it's done when there's no wind or weather, and as light of traffic as possible. The turn around ideally is an offramp or junction, or just pull off and turn around, without stopping. Just as steady a state of driving as can be reasonably done. as few accellerations, changes of speed or lane changes as possible. A hiway test track, to test the Vehicle, not the Driver or Conditions. Ideally this is done pre-Groove, before the Groove or lots of Mods are done, then after the Groove and after other major Mods. Same route same technique close as can be matched. This won't be Real-World driving, but will accurately as practical show what the Groove and other Mods can do. Comparing Oranges to Oranges, so to speak.

Tracy G

Don't you think because of the almost dinosaur type computer system that I might not get good results because the computer just spurts out fuel without really measuring or am I missing something regarding these computer systems?

Also Why has no one tried to modify the computer parameters instead of trying to fool these computers with resistors and what not. I mean if a computer has xyz parameter and you change it to abc that should surely work.

Martin,

The way I see it(sometimes logic does not relate to how computers work), if your computer is not reading the oxygen efficiently like the newer ones as you were implying, then I think you have an open door to fool around with feeding more oxygen to the engine without having the ECU feed more fuel as a response. That is what scoops were about on the carbed cars years ago. Forcing more air into the combustion chamber for better power and MPG.
As far as changing the computer, there are programs out there that do that stuff but from the asking around I have been doing about this, its big bucks and only by those who have the program software for each make. Usually this is done with sport cars meant for speed from the searching I have been doing. They can afford the big bucks to get the extra ponies they look for.
Dont know if they actually can lean out the AFR though without making the engine run rough.
I would think that advancing/retarding the timing would be what would be needed since this is what they do with carbed cars for response in the torque and MPG.
Terry can verify the logistics behind this since he is a carb man with much experience.

Hi Tracy G.

Thank you for the info regarding the workings of most car computers. I can see that there is much more to it than one sometimes realize.

I am a bit skeptical regarding my Truck and getting good results with the groove. I hope I am wrong but I think the computer might be too "dumb" To adjust to a leaner mix. I am hoping that more power will have the effect that i don't need to press the fuel pedal that much and save in that sense.

I have been searching online now for a while for anything like manuals regarding this vehicle of mine. I cant seem to find anything. This is a 4G63NB Motor with a double overhead cam but only one camshaft. The manuals online are for Double overhead cams with 2 camshafts.

I plan to go see the mechanics at the distributor this week to see if they could shed some light on the subject. They should know where to find info and hopefully they are willing to share.

I will be doing the "Orange Run" sometime this week. Never thought of it, But I think it is a great Idea. This way I can do some real world tests on my vehicle. I think it might be a good idea to do this with every vehicle I work on. There is a flat piece of highway with 2 lanes that can sometimes be quiet that I will use for this Purpose.

Thank you again for the input..

Martin

Thank you Karl.

I hope you are right. I need to have some proof when I start to do the groove...Ha Ha.

Think of it. Yes sir I do the groove. Did it on my colt but no mpg or power gain. Can I do your vehicle though....

Seriously though I think you are right and that I would get serious gains with this vehicle system that is so simple. A better burn that won't be spotted because there is no oxygen censor ...

Will wait to hear what Terry has to say....My opinion is that because liquid fuel is injected at vast quantities - more than is needed - you should be able to lean out the AFR to a point... Or maybe my logic is wrong again....

Ystervark wrote: I am a bit skeptical regarding my Truck and getting good results with the groove. I hope I am wrong but I think the computer might be too "dumb" To adjust to a leaner mix. I am hoping that more power will have the effect that i don't need to press the fuel pedal that much and save in that sense.

OK, this is the 2nd computer related quote and I feel it time to explain why we needn't be scared of them in our vehicles. Karl believes their logic makes no sense, but that premise is strictly opinion; computers function on logic we humans who didn't program them don't yet understand. part of our task as gadgetmen is to learn that logic or formula and then think our way around it for our own purposes. a computer is told by programmers that X + Y + Z = Yellow, where X is a/b, Y is the square root of jellybean times grapefruit and Z is Pi cubed on Thursdays when the moon is full and Mercury is retrograde; how we change X, Y and Z to get Green and make the computer think Yellow is Green is our task. Learning the factors and how they're used so we can manipulate them to fit the equation, In other words, since the equation isn't easily changed by us.

How this relates to your Mitsu, Martin, is that the fewer the sensors, the fewer the factors in the equation. It's going to be easier to reverse engineer the logic tree of your truck because it doesn't seem to need to balance both sides of an equation; that translates to making adjustments on one side of it being acceptable to the computer. "Green is the new Yellow? alrighty; let's get on with it, then" might just turn out to be the case.

Sorry I've been absent - work threw me a curveball on Friday.
I'm happy you've reduced your spark gap from the doubling - I had concerns about that. What about Tire pressure; have you let some Nitro out yet? It might get a bit dicey when it rains...
Also, that PCV re-route looks fantastic and clean...Now that you're back to work (Me assuming), this being Monday, I'm eager to hear how the vehicle has responded to this point.
Orange runs - I live in a small city surrounded by countryside; I've found it easiest for me to find quiet clear roads without stops out in the farms at night. It may be more difficult for you to get outside of Pretoria/Jo'Burg though...
Tracy brought up the Reynolds Number in an earlier post...Yes, a smoother intake pipe, post air filter, will present a better (less variable) mass at the valve that is the throttle body; that'll translate to a stronger air jet going into the groove, and that means a stronger turbulence/waveform in the intake, better mixing air and fuel. This is where we're going to start to need to know your computer (I'm guessing TPS largely dictates fuel delivery- MAF/IAT will tell the computer what's present at the butterfly valve, angle says how much is getting IN, simple 14.7:1 calculation after that. My point being, we might start thinking about how to cheat the TPS signal now...if I'm right. Another thing we need to look at is how it determines open/closed loop, and how it verifies that - It only has coolant temp to go by without oxygen sensors)
Have you found your OBD service port yet? they're generally in the footwell of the driver's side of the cockpit, underneath steering column trim panels, behind an access door near a fuse panel...chase your electrics around and it'll show up.

Back to making a living, unfortunately...I'll check in again later

Karl believes their logic makes no sense, but that premise is strictly opinion

I think you misunderstood what I was trying to relate.
Here is what I said:
The way I see it(sometimes logic does not relate to how computers work), if your computer is not reading the oxygen efficiently like the newer ones as you were implying, then I think you have an open door to fool around with feeding more oxygen to the engine without having the ECU feed more fuel as a response.

What I meant by that was that since Martins ECU was not reading like most computers and he was referring to it as "dumb", my logic was that the computer should be easier to fool since it didnt have a second 02 to read excess oxygen and hence one should be able to have more freedom fooling the computer. But as I have found out, my logic and how the system works are two different animals.
Case in point is the 02 extender. My logic would say that since its not getting in the direct stream of the exhaust, the volume of oxygen should be diminished and hence lean out the fuel. Nope, the extenders did zero for better gas mileage from what I see. Maybe the 02 sensors measure ratio of oxygen and bringing it out of the exhaust stream does nothing for the ratio it reads.